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Time to grow up

pourdeac said:
LOL....well he did a hell of a job....17 years ago when the practice rules were laxer, in a much weaker conference, inheriting Andy Ellis and Big12 scoring phenom Andre Emmett (4th all time Big 12), and able to fill in with JUCO transfers like Kasib Powell (15/6 production). Very Buzz Williams-like isn't it (without the scoring phenom). They also got crushed in the first round as a #6.

So riffing on your astute observation......without inheriting a superstar who stayed for 4 years, able to get JUCOs, more limited practice, and in a tougher conference....I seriously doubt he would be doing much better at Wake than Manning in year 3....just like Buzz Williams.

And well well well....KenPom #28 in his 3rd year...just 5 spots higher than we are right now. He was in the 28-32 range his first 4 years and then cratered. He never really improved which is kind of odd.
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Emmett wasn't a scoring phenom before he came under Bob Knight's tutelage. What were Emmett's stats before Knight got there? The answer is that he averaged 7.7 PPG in the year before Knight started coaching him. Bob Knight made Andre Emmett the player that he became after Knight arrived in Lubbock. And Knight had to 1) find and 2) develop Kasib Powell.

Also, TT didn't get "crushed" in that first round game. They lost by 8 points in what was a virtual road game....playing Southern Illinois in Chicago. In any case, going from 3-13 in the conference to 23 wins and an NCAA bid under those circumstances was one hell of a coaching job.
 
BudatWake said:
I guess we should not worry this much about the team's performance. If winning is important to them, they need to find a way to win-- if being close is enough so be it
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This is as stupid a post as when you wondered why when double teamed someone there was always someone open.
 
The elite teams in college basketball have some combination of elite talent - top 25 HS players, "one and done" guys and really good (top 100) juniors and seniors with significant experience. The talent level is "reranked" after college performance, not necessarily where they were predicted by some people scouting HS ball.

Wake has two guys who are top 100 talent, but they are only sophomores. None of the older guys are top 100 in talent and skill.
None of the frosh are top 25, or even close to it. BChill is as close to top 100 talent in the freshman class, and he really isn't at this point in his career.

And in the end, it all goes back to the classic basketball maxim of matchups and minutes. This Wake team has several spots where they don't match up well with a lot of other teams. Most notably, at the small forward/big guard spots. Wake really has trouble with teams that have athletic players around 6-6 who can shoot and move quickly. Wake's bigger guys are too slow and not quick. Wake's quicker guys are too small.

Smoke and mirrors can only make up for so much. It has run out about the 35 minute mark of multiple games this year.
 
Deaconblue said:
The elite teams in college basketball have some combination of elite talent - top 25 HS players, "one and done" guys and really good (top 100) juniors and seniors with significant experience. The talent level is "reranked" after college performance, not necessarily where they were predicted by some people scouting HS ball.

Wake has two guys who are top 100 talent, but they are only sophomores. None of the older guys are top 100 in talent and skill.
None of the frosh are top 25, or even close to it. BChill is as close to top 100 talent in the freshman class, and he really isn't at this point in his career.

And in the end, it all goes back to the classic basketball maxim of matchups and minutes. This Wake team has several spots where they don't match up well with a lot of other teams. Most notably, at the small forward/big guard spots. Wake really has trouble with teams that have athletic players around 6-6 who can shoot and move quickly. Wake's bigger guys are too slow and not quick. Wake's quicker guys are too small.

Smoke and mirrors can only make up for so much. It has run out about the 35 minute mark of multiple games this year.
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The bottom line from what you are saying....when we cut to the chase....is that over the last 10 years WF & the ACC have been going in opposite directions and the end result is that WF is being left further & further behind. When you add schools like Louisville, Syracuse & Notre Dame to an already tough conference with Duke & Carolina....not to mention several other potential improving programs like Florida State & Miami, etc....WF has simply been overwhelmed. Obviously, we have shot ourselves in the foot with self-inflicted coaching mistakes....but the warning signs were out even before Skip passed. Don't forget that his last two teams went 8-24 in the ACC, finishing last & next-to-last in the conference. There was a very short-term temporary sign of life with a few 2 & done players.....but it was never sustainable, and even those teams couldn't make it out of the first weekend of the NCAAT.

WF has been spending a hell of a lot of money on its basketball program and getting very return on its investment in the way of results for a long time now. And if they stay in this ACC, I don't see that changing anytime soon. Oh, there may be short blips where we luck into a player or two like Jeff Teague and finish in the middle of the ACC, but WF is never going to be a consistent contender in the ACC as it is configured today. If Chris Paul had not been born on WF's doorsteps and dumped in its lap it would have been more than 20 years since they even made a Sweet 16. Any hope that they can make a positive step next year from this year's bare mediocrity depends upon Collins returning.....and I can't understand for the life of me why he would choose to come back for another year of this shit show when he could be a 1st round draft pick and stick several million dollars in the bank.
 
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bobknightfan said:
The bottom line from what you are saying....when we cut to the chase....is that over the last 10 years WF & the ACC have been going in opposite directions and the end result is that WF is being left further & further behind. When you add schools like Louisville, Syracuse & Notre Dame to an already tough conference with Duke & Carolina....not to mention several other potential improving programs like Florida State & Miami, etc....WF has simply been overwhelmed. Obviously, we have shot ourselves in the foot with self-inflicted coaching mistakes....but the warning signs were out even before Skip passed. Don't forget that his last two teams went 8-24 in the ACC, finishing last & next-to-last in the conference. There was a very short-term temporary sign of life with a few 2 & done players.....but it was never sustainable, and even those teams couldn't make it out of the first weekend of the NCAAT.

WF has been spending a hell of a lot of money on its basketball program and getting very return on its investment in the way of results for a long time now. And if they stay in this ACC, I don't see that changing anytime soon. Oh, there may be short blips where we luck into a player or two like Jeff Teague and finish in the middle of the ACC, but WF is never going to be a consistent contender in the ACC as it is configured today. If Chris Paul had not been born on WF's doorsteps and dumped in its lap it would have been more than 20 years since they even made a Sweet 16. Any hope that they can make a positive step next year from this year's bare mediocrity depends upon Collins returning.....and I can't understand for the life of me why he would choose to come back for another year of this shit show when he could be a 1st round draft pick and stick several million dollars in the bank.
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miserable fan(base)
 
I guess there are a few ways to deal with what WFU sports has dealt us over the years:

1. claim that it's a good thing we don't care, while posting ~2 times per day, every day, for 6 years, on a website primarily dedicated to WFU sports;
2. proclaim that under the new normal WFU is never going to amount to anything while simultaneously extolling the virtues of a couple of HOF coaches who never coached for WFU; or
3. just be a fan.
 
Instead of simply criticizing me and ignoring the content of my post....which I don't mind, by the way, because that is simply a meaningless response....a novel reply would be for someone to occasionally address the actual points that I made in my post. Otherwise, the only logical assumption that one could make is that the responder concurs with the points made.
 
bobknightfan said:
Instead of simply criticizing me and ignoring the content of my post....which I don't mind, by the way, because that is simply a meaningless response....a novel reply would be for someone to occasionally address the actual points that I made in my post. Otherwise, the only logical assumption that one could make is that the responder concurs with the points made.
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You would get more replies if you would just make your point instead of wrapping them up in insults, dripping with superiority and denigrating anybody who dares to be a fan(atic) of Wake Forest.

I think you have reasonable points about the lack of success within the program given how much money Wake puts into it. It's hard to even discuss that with you because of your tone, demeanor, and way you choose to interact on here.
 
bobknightfan said:
Instead of simply criticizing me and ignoring the content of my post....which I don't mind, by the way, because that is simply a meaningless response....a novel reply would be for someone to occasionally address the actual points that I made in my post. Otherwise, the only logical assumption that one could make is that the responder concurs with the points made.
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I disagree with the entire premise of your post. Your first sentence is, "The bottom line from what you are saying....when we cut to the chase....is that over the last 10 years WF & the ACC have been going in opposite directions and the end result is that WF is being left further & further behind." I don't see us being left further and further behind, in fact, in the major sports (football and basketball) we have taken big steps in the right direction. You used to criticize Clawson for not scoring points in ACC wins (which was an odd criticism, but that's a different discussion). This past season Wake won ACC games scoring 24, 27, and 28 points. Wake also won an ACC game on the road, made a bowl game, and beat a ranked team in the bowl game. It's hard to argue with that progress.

In basketball we have also taken a big step in the right direction, as we are on the NCAA bubble and playing meaningful games in Feb. We've already tripled our ACC win total from last year, won 2 ACC road games, greatly improved our ranking in every computer poll around, and we've got NBA talent on the roster. Again, hard to argue with that progress, and I think progress will continue next year. I notice we didn't have this conversation after beating NC State by 30 points just a few days ago.

Of course this doesn't include the other 14 sports in which Wake competes. We've won national championships and been to national finals in those this year alone.

It's a strange time to argue Wake is moving "further and further" from the ACC because in reality we're moving closer and closer.
 
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Someone should tie a cinder block to this thread and throw it off a bridge. Miserable fans.
 
Thread with loh and bkf heavy condescension. What a joy.

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It takes a real lack of self-realization to post on a Wake Forest sports message board that you are glad you don't care about a Wake sports team
 
You would think that an elderly gentleman would get tired of being an Internet troll on a message board, and expecially of a school that he graduated from. Really one of the most pathetic thing I've ever seen

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There's always clear purpose and direction behind bkf's trolling. Lohegrin's is just so uneven and...strange.
 
ChrisL68 said:
You would think that an elderly gentleman would get tired of being an Internet troll on a message board, and expecially of a school that he graduated from. Really one of the most pathetic thing I've ever seen

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Especially on a team he doesn't care about and people he doesn't care about.
 
DeaconSig said:
In all fairness, the team doesn't care about him and the people on this board don't give a shit about him, so it goes both ways.
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Right, but we are also here trying to discuss the actual team that we do care about, with people that, for the most part we enjoy conversing with.

I don't get the draw behind going on a game thread after a loss (of a college you went to and used to support), and denigrating/mocking people for being upset over the loss. Makes no sense to me other than trying to get a rise out of people. Which leads me to the point that he and moonz must lead sad, sad lives if that is their primary source of entertainment at 9 on a Tuesday night in February.

To each their own.
 
Rafi said:
I disagree with the entire premise of your post. Your first sentence is, "The bottom line from what you are saying....when we cut to the chase....is that over the last 10 years WF & the ACC have been going in opposite directions and the end result is that WF is being left further & further behind." I don't see us being left further and further behind, in fact, in the major sports (football and basketball) we have taken big steps in the right direction. You used to criticize Clawson for not scoring points in ACC wins (which was an odd criticism, but that's a different discussion). This past season Wake won ACC games scoring 24, 27, and 28 points. Wake also won an ACC game on the road, made a bowl game, and beat a ranked team in the bowl game. It's hard to argue with that progress.

In basketball we have also taken a big step in the right direction, as we are on the NCAA bubble and playing meaningful games in Feb. We've already tripled our ACC win total from last year, won 2 ACC road games, greatly improved our ranking in every computer poll around, and we've got NBA talent on the roster. Again, hard to argue with that progress, and I think progress will continue next year. I notice we didn't have this conversation after beating NC State by 30 points just a few days ago.

Of course this doesn't include the other 14 sports in which Wake competes. We've won national championships and been to national finals in those this year alone.

It's a strange time to argue Wake is moving "further and further" from the ACC because in reality we're moving closer and closer.
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First of all, I want to say that I appreciate your reply which does address my actual post....even though you disagree with what I said. That's OK. Everyone has a right to an opinion about issues that are being discussed. Let me also say that when I talk about WF falling further behind in the ACC I am talking about the two revenue sports. My apologies for not making that clear earlier. Obviously, some of the minor sports....soccer in particular....are doing very well.

We do disagree, however, regarding the situation in basketball & football. Yes, the basketball team this year has progressed from the past couple of years, though I wouldn't even say that it has done any better than Bz's last team four years ago....which did beat Duke, Carolina & NC State all in the same year and had a winning overall record. Furthermore, if you look at the basketball program from a longer perspective, I don't really see how you can claim that WF is not gradually becoming less competitive in this ACC in the last 20 years since Tim Duncan, Randolph Childress, Rodney Rogers, etc & Dave Odom left. As I said, we were basically gifted Chris Paul due to the fortunate location of his birth.....and without him we would not have made even a Sweet 16 in more than 20 years. And even with him, we barely made only one. One last thing about this recent basketball "progress"....which has not yet even reached the point where we are one of the 100 programs in the country to make the NCAA or NIT post-season tournaments. Where will the program be next year if Collins elects to leave for the NBA?

Now, to the football program. Yes, it did better this year as well....though the improvement in the record was due in large part to the weakest schedule I can remember in a long time. Nevertheless, there was definite improvement this past year and the win over Temple was impressive. However, once again looking at a longer-term picture of the trend, how has the football program done in the last 8 years since Jim Grobe's 3-year miracle run from 2006 thru 2008? This past season was the first winning record after 7 straight years of losing records. To me, that does not indicate a program that is making sustained progress.
 
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