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Washington Post Rips ACC, Jabs Wake

HowardDeanSux said:
There is an obvious difference between the style of officiating in the NCAA tournament and the regular ACC season this year. The difference between "letting them play" versus a much more tightly called game. I prefer the NCAA tournament style as it makes for a more entertaining game.
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I agree on both.
 
Hot Wheels said:
TheReff just doesn't want to admit that the calls in the last minute of a game are different. Berry should have been called for a travel or charge.
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There were a handful of calls late in that game that the crew just outright botched. You have to call something on that Berry play - a charge or a block.
 
CantStandYa said:
There were a handful of calls late in that game that the crew just outright botched. You have to call something on that Berry play - a charge or a block.
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When there are multiple fouls being committed constantly at all times thruout every minute of the entire game there are always going to be calls missed.

You could take a snapshot photo during any point in a college game today and probably see three fouls being committed in that photo.
 
bobknightfan said:
When there are multiple fouls being committed constantly at all times thruout every minute of the entire game there are always going to be calls missed.

You could take a snapshot photo during any point in a college game today and probably see three fouls being committed in that photo.
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Bob, do you think your opinion will carry more weight if you keep repeating it?

There is a grain of truth to what you say but it is not really relevant to the comments others are making. When people complain about a missed call or inconsistent officiating, it is not against the backdrop of the letter of the rules that you keep talking about - it is against the context of the game as it is being played today. No one expects every bit of contact to be called a foul - nor would anyone want that. But certain types of contact are generally called, even today, and when that type of contact occurs and goes uncalled, that is when people complain. Or when certain plays go uncalled for an entire game and then an official decides to call one - that type of inconsistency is what drives fans crazy.

Or when obvious calls go unnoticed (see Berry's charge/travel or the goaltending in the NW game), even with 3 officials on the court. Officials have bad games, make bad calls and choke, just like players. When it impacts your team, fans are going to complain. When top programs and top coaches seem to get the benefit of the doubt, fans of other programs are going to complain. It is the nature of fandom and your constant decrying of the practice is simply a waste of time - people aren't going to change.
 
scooter84 said:
Bob, do you think your opinion will carry more weight if you keep repeating it?

There is a grain of truth to what you say but it is not really relevant to the comments others are making. When people complain about a missed call or inconsistent officiating, it is not against the backdrop of the letter of the rules that you keep talking about - it is against the context of the game as it is being played today. No one expects every bit of contact to be called a foul - nor would anyone want that. But certain types of contact are generally called, even today, and when that type of contact occurs and goes uncalled, that is when people complain. Or when certain plays go uncalled for an entire game and then an official decides to call one - that type of inconsistency is what drives fans crazy.

Or when obvious calls go unnoticed (see Berry's charge/travel or the goaltending in the NW game), even with 3 officials on the court. Officials have bad games, make bad calls and choke, just like players. When it impacts your team, fans are going to complain. When top programs and top coaches seem to get the benefit of the doubt, fans of other programs are going to complain. It is the nature of fandom and your constant decrying of the practice is simply a waste of time - people aren't going to change.
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What I am saying is that when you open the floodgates by allowing more & more rules to be broken, you create a situation where you have hundreds of unnecessary subjective calls that have to be made.....geometrically increasing the potential for complaints about missed calls.

What is wrong with simply playing the game by the rules? That is something that nobody seems to want to consider as an option.

And there is more than a "grain" of truth to what I have been saying. I don't think that referees are calling more than 2% of the travelling violations in the game today....and less than 10% of the fouls that are being committed. When 98% of the travelling violations and 90% of the fouls are not being called, it is easy for fans of both teams to complain about missed calls that they see going against their team. As I said, it is an impossible situation. They have ruined the game of basketball. It used to be a game of beauty & finesse. Now it's more like a backyard brawl.
 
"When 98% of the travelling violations and 90% of the fouls are not being called, it is easy for fans of both teams to complain about missed calls that they see going against their team."

Yet you complain about those fans complaining.
 
bobknightfan said:
What I am saying is that when you open the floodgates by allowing more & more rules to be broken, you create a situation where you have hundreds of unnecessary subjective calls that have to be made.....geometrically increasing the potential for complaints about missed calls.

What is wrong with simply playing the game by the rules? That is something that nobody seems to want to consider as an option.

And there is more than a "grain" of truth to what I have been saying. I don't think that referees are calling more than 2% of the travelling violations in the game today....and less than 10% of the fouls that are being committed. When 98% of the travelling violations and 90% of the fouls are not being called, it is easy for fans of both teams to complain about missed calls that they see going against their team. As I said, it is an impossible situation. They have ruined the game of basketball. It used to be a game of beauty & finesse. Now it's more like a backyard brawl.
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You fail to recognize the multiple rule changes since your mythological golden age of basketball when you could win 40 to 38. Areas of emphasis have changed, shot clock, how you can use your hands, block/charge, what constitutes a foul, flagrant foul, dunking the ball, goal tending, substitutions, three point shot, palming, to name a few. Things change. You never do. Same as with Bob Knight. Used to be a lot of coaches abused their players. Everyone but Knight and a few others never got the message.
 
PhDeac said:
"When 98% of the travelling violations and 90% of the fouls are not being called, it is easy for fans of both teams to complain about missed calls that they see going against their team."

Yet you complain about those fans complaining.
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I was complaining about WF fans complaining because they seem to think that the referees have a bias against WF. As I said, it is very easy for fans of BOTH teams to complain about missed calls....but I never see WF fans talking about missed calls on the other team. Of course the referees miss a lot of calls that go against WF. They also miss a lot of calls that go against WF's opponent. With fouls being constantly committed all the time, there is no way they can call all of them. So WF fans have blinders and only see the ones that go against them. The game is a total mess right now. We have created a situation where bigger, stronger players have a definite advantage because they can engage in constant illegal physical contact without being penalized for it. If those players had to play the game by the rules they would not have such an unfair advantage.

Simply put, we have reached the point where, evidently, many fans no longer think the game should be played according to the rules. I really don't know what to say to fans who do not think the game should be played according to the rules.
 
bobknightfan said:
I was complaining about WF fans complaining because they seem to think that the referees have a bias against WF. As I said, it is very easy for fans of BOTH teams to complain about missed calls....but I never see WF fans talking about missed calls on the other team. Of course the referees miss a lot of calls that go against WF. They also miss a lot of calls that go against WF's opponent. With fouls being constantly committed all the time, there is no way they can call all of them. So WF fans have blinders and only see the ones that go against them. The game is a total mess right now. We have created a situation where bigger, stronger players have a definite advantage because they can engage in constant illegal physical contact without being penalized for it. If those players had to play the game by the rules they would not have such an unfair advantage.

Simply put, we have reached the point where, evidently, many fans no longer think the game should be played according to the rules. I really don't know what to say to fans who do not think the game should be played according to the rules.
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Bigger, stronger players have always had and advantage in basketball. In addition it's always been stupid to blame refs for a loss or bias and always has been. Except for the scoreboard play against Wake in the ACC tournament.
 
macktheknife said:
Bigger, stronger players have always had and advantage in basketball. In addition it's always been stupid to blame refs for a loss or bias and always has been. Except for the scoreboard play against Wake in the ACC tournament.
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I agree with all of that. However, those players would have less of an extra, unfair advantage if they were forced to play by the rules.

One thing that has gotten totally out of hand...and to my knowledge there has been no rule change about this....is traveling. Players no longer even pay any attention to what they are doing with their feet or how many extra steps they are taking. Traveling is so commonplace and is called so infrequently that players don't even give it a second thought. They shuffle their feet, take hop steps with both feet after stopping their dribble, and take as many steps as they need on drives to the basket....and know that it is almost never going to be called.

Excessive, never-called traveling one reason why the defensive player has to resort to illegally using his hands. It is impossible to guard a player in a legal manner if you are going to allow the offensive player to continually travel with the basketball with being called for it.

The game is now just completely out of control as far as effectively officiating it. As I said, maybe playing the game without rules makes it more interesting for the fans.....but it makes the game impossible to officiate, and leads to constant situations where fans are complaining about missed calls. When 90% of the violations are not being called, of course it is easy to find many times when you think your team is being treated unfairly. And it is a partisan fan's nature to only look at the officiating from the point of view of his own team.

If everyone was forced to play the game by the rules, you would have far less of this going on....but we have gone so far now that I don't hold out much hope that we will ever see it happen. They have tried to reign in a few of the most abused rules violations in the last couple of years....which, of course, resulted in more fouls being called....and that has only met with holy hell from many fans.

Many fans seem to equate playing the game by the rules with "making it unwatchable".
 
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BKF, the traveling rules and the percentage of travels called is likely about the same as it's always been. Modern players are just better at maximizing the number of steps and distance covered within the rules. If Giannis catches the ball at half court on the run he can get to the rim with one dribble and four steps and be completely within the rules.
 
RChildress107 said:
BKF, the traveling rules and the percentage of travels called is likely about the same as it's always been. Modern players are just better at maximizing the number of steps and distance covered within the rules. If Giannis catches the ball at half court on the run he can get to the rim with one dribble and four steps and be completely within the rules.
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I don't buy that for a minute....and I've watched college basketball games for 60 years now. (The first games I remember watching on TV were Carolina's 32-0 run to the championship over Johnny Green & Michigan State and Wilt Chamberlain & Kansas...both triple overtime...in 1957. And the 1st game I went to in person was WF-UNC in Woollen Gym on Jan 4, 1958.)

There is far, far more traveling going on now than there has ever been in the past. And almost none of it is being called.

ETA: And, by the way, that guy traveled with the ball. After you catch the ball with both feet on the floor you cannot take two full steps after the dribble. You can take one step, but the ball has to leave your hands before the second foot comes down again.

Did the Villanova player travel on that last drive in the game after the baseline move put Wisconsin ahead by one? It is at the 2:26 mark on this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyzyxe8MTw4
 
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bobknightfan said:
I don't buy that for a minute....and I've watched college basketball games for 60 years now. (The first games I remember watching on TV were Carolina's 32-0 run to the championship over Johnny Green & Michigan State and Wilt Chamberlain & Kansas...both triple overtime...in 1957. And the 1st game I went to in person was WF-UNC in Woollen Gym on Jan 4, 1958.)

There is far, far more traveling going on now than there has ever been in the past. And almost none of it is being called.

ETA: And, by the way, that guy traveled with the ball. After you catch the ball with both feet on the floor you cannot take two full steps after the dribble. You can take one step, but the ball has to leave your hands before the second foot comes down again.
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He caught the ball after the dribble with both feet in the air (in fact at no point in that entire video were both of his feet on the floor. It's called running) first foot down is his pivot foot, he takes one more step and dunks without ever putting his pivot foot back down.

Just because he did it really fast and took big steps doesn't make it a travel.
 
RChildress107 said:
He caught the ball after the dribble with both feet in the air (in fact at no point in that entire video were both of his feet on the floor. It's called running) first foot down is his pivot foot, he takes one more step and dunks without ever putting his pivot foot back down.

Just because he did it really fast and took big steps doesn't make it a travel.
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That makes absolutely no sense. How can you dribble the basketball with both feet in the air?

He took two full steps after completing his dribble....and when the 2nd foot hit the floor, he was guilty of traveling. I don't care how fast he did it.

(And the Villanova player took three full steps after his dribble....not to mention intentionally forcing contact with the defensive player.)
 
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They used to run drills on this at Dave Odom basketball camp. We would catch a pass at the free throw line, jab step to the right (establishing left foot as the pivot), shot fake, and then drive to the right (right foot, start dribble as left foot comes back down, catch dribble in mid-stride, right foot comes down as pivot foot, jump off left foot for layup. 4 steps, 1 dribble, not a travel.
 
bobknightfan said:
That makes absolutely no sense. How can you dribble the basketball with both feet in the air?

He took two full steps after completing his dribble....and when the 2nd foot hit the floor, he was guilty of traveling. I don't care how fast he did it.
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Read my post above. If you catch a pass or your own dribble while both feet are in the air (because you are running and are mid-stride) then you get two steps (or one step and then a jump stop), you must then pass or shoot the ball before any feet touch the ground again.

See Official NCAA Men's basketball rules, Rule 9, Section 5, Article 4, a. (Page 83)
 
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RChildress107 said:
Read my post above. If you catch a pass or your own dribble while both feet are in the air (because you are running and are mid-stride) then you get two steps (or one step and then a jump stop), you must then pass or shoot the ball before any feet touch the ground again.

See Official NCAA Men's basketball rules, Rule 9, Section 5, Article 4, a. (Page 83)
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That is entirely correct and is the basis for the "jump-stop" move. Probably the move taken the most advantage of in basketball in regards to the travel, especially out front with a guard. Watch how many steps the guard takes when he catches the ball with his back to the defender and is up in the air and is allowed to take as he re-establishes himself facing the defender out front. I count 3-5 steps sometimes. They called one at a key time over the weekend, but really had no choice as after the long steps on the catch, the guard also slid his feet.

Then watch for the extra hops steps the guards and post men get inside on the so called jump stop. They pitty-pat many little steps in stopping and many little steps in taking off [Duncan & Hansbrough]. That is what drives the coaches crazy but actually is the hardest for the officials to actually see. We watch tape and show it all the time, but officials just are not looking down at the feet. Reason--the lead official on the baseline is looking thru the players for contact, looking into bodies on their shots for shoves & hacks. Plus he is usually too close to see the feet. Your 2 officials out front--trail on strong side & slot on the weak side without the ball are the guys that are away from the post & can see the feet, but they don't have the post as their "primary" area. All 3 officials are not supposed to be looking at the ball, just one set of eyes, maybe two if in the middle of an area. By staying in their primary areas is how you get the illegal picks, hedges, bumps and all the "off the ball" stuff they are supposed to get. Hopefully one might be looking up and can see the foot shuffle and help out the lead with the travel call.
 
TheReff said:
That is entirely correct and is the basis for the "jump-stop" move. Probably the move taken the most advantage of in basketball in regards to the travel, especially out front with a guard. Watch how many steps the guard takes when he catches the ball with his back to the defender and is up in the air and is allowed to take as he re-establishes himself facing the defender out front. I count 3-5 steps sometimes. They called one at a key time over the weekend, but really had no choice as after the long steps on the catch, the guard also slid his feet.

Then watch for the extra hops steps the guards and post men get inside on the so called jump stop. They pitty-pat many little steps in stopping and many little steps in taking off [Duncan & Hansbrough]. That is what drives the coaches crazy but actually is the hardest for the officials to actually see. We watch tape and show it all the time, but officials just are not looking down at the feet. Reason--the lead official on the baseline is looking thru the players for contact, looking into bodies on their shots for shoves & hacks. Plus he is usually too close to see the feet. Your 2 officials out front--trail on strong side & slot on the weak side without the ball are the guys that are away from the post & can see the feet, but they don't have the post as their "primary" area. All 3 officials are not supposed to be looking at the ball, just one set of eyes, maybe two if in the middle of an area. By staying in their primary areas is how you get the illegal picks, hedges, bumps and all the "off the ball" stuff they are supposed to get. Hopefully one might be looking up and can see the foot shuffle and help out the lead with the travel call.
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I would agree that foot shuffling down low, not drives to the basket, are the largest source of uncalled travels (by far). The most called travel is when a player steps into the catch, plants his feet and then moves both feet before starting his dribble. You are only allowed to do that if your pivot foot was planted when you caught the ball and your pivot foot was the last to move. Then you simply have to dribble before that pivot foot comes back to the floor.

Refs get overzealous with this call and wrongly call a travel when the guy caught a pass with one foot planted and then subsequently drives off that foot.
 
RChildress107 said:
I would agree that foot shuffling down low, not drives to the basket, are the largest source of uncalled travels (by far). The most called travel is when a player steps into the catch, plants his feet and then moves both feet before starting his dribble. You are only allowed to do that if your pivot foot was planted when you caught the ball and your pivot foot was the last to move. Then you simply have to dribble before that pivot foot comes back to the floor.

Refs get overzealous with this call and wrongly call a travel when the guy caught a pass with one foot planted and then subsequently drives off that foot.
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Right, that does happen. I now sit in the stands observing high school games for the local association and writing reports since I have had knee replacement. But I see, by far too many missed walk calls from the non-calling side. I might start a mark on the side of how many I see. It is hard enough for a defender to stop a quick offensive guy anyway, but give him the illegal dribbles they get now with palming or cupping, throw in some extra steps, maybe an illegal pick that is missed, and it is damn hard to stop that drive to the hole! Conversely, if an offensive guy is trying to come hard legally off a screen and the defender is able to stick an illegal hip, knee or elbow into him to know him off stride or on his ass, that makes it tough on the offense to run their play in 30 seconds.
 
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