Are $250k Earners Middle Class?

[bojanglefunk]

I would be curious to know the causes for increases in productivity- i.e. automation, computers, etc. allowing people to work less and create more.

 

[TownieDeac]

I would be curious to know the causes for increases in productivity- i.e. automation, computers, etc. allowing people to work less and create more.

I am also interested in how productivity is determined. Seems too that offshoring and lean manufacturing, which help business bottom lines, but hurt workers, would mean increases in productivity, coupled with technology increases and knowledge increases. Oh and tax cuts obvi.

 

[RJKarl]

People who make $250,000 a year are not part of the middle class but that is irrelevant.

Most of those people made an honest living to get there, the ultra banking elite did not. Americans have been robbed by them and yes to have let the banks fail would have created an even bigger catastrophe that already took place however we should have never allowed them to engage in risky derivatives in the first place. Repealing Glass-Steagall was an awful decision. Until more regulation and oversight is taken, the less rewards we will see for our hard work put in and the more people like Townie will be squeezed to the point of no return. You shouldn't have to work multiple jobs to make it in this country, especially if you graduated from Wake. We are a wealthy nation but most of that wealth is concentrated in such a small amount of hands. The game is rigged. I cannot stress enough how much currency depreciation has hurt the middle class and the lower class of society at large, not just this country but all over. That's part of the reason for these revolutions taking place in middle eastern countries, rising food prices are killing the lower classes. So what's the answer? Some people have started investing in foreign assets and precious metals but not everyone has that luxury. The current greed taking place in the world today is greater than any other previous civilization has ever seen.

So I think instead of people getting angry at small business owners, they should instead be refocusing that anger towards those who are manipulating the markets and those who are idly standing by and allowing it to happen (the politicians, both sides).

Nobody is "angry" at small business owners. Only those who are brainwashed by the RW propogandists would think such a thing.

 

[TuffaloDeac10]

I would be curious to know the causes for increases in productivity- i.e. automation, computers, etc. allowing people to work less and create more.

It's a long story and also not clear.

In the 1980s, wages were being redistributed between workers; upper income people got a greater share of pre-tax income even as overall productivity was rising. Could be reflective of workers losing bargaining power against management/capital and management gaining bargaining power against capital.

But you can see that overall labor share of income has really fallen off a cliff since 2000. That could be capital-biased technological change or it could be rising monopoly power. I know which explanation I find more convincing.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Nobody is "angry" at small business owners. Only those who are brainwashed by the RW propogandists would think such a thing.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

But you can see that overall labor share of income has really fallen off a cliff since 2000. That could be capital-biased technological change or it could be rising monopoly power. I know which explanation I find more convincing.

Or it could be a larger stratification of skill sets. You can call that a monopoly, I guess, but I think the monopoly would be a result as opposed to a cause.

 

[TuffaloDeac10]

Rising monopoly power as a result of skill-biased technological change (and not capital-biased change?)

or

Rising monopoly power as an outcome of Reagan destroying anti-trust enforcement and nobody restoring it.

Wow. I'll really have to think this one over.

 

[TownieDeac]

It is encouraging to see that, despite the fact that your brilliance has not yet been recognized by our welfare/warfare economy, you are content with your condition and do not feel the need to complain about unfair taxes or being unable to afford a better lifestyle or save for your future. Take heart. As soon as this becomes a free country no otherwise normal person capable of perfect scores on the SAT, GRE, GMAT, LSAT, MCAT, and NC Driver's License Exam will be stuck working three part time menial jobs.

In the meantime, as you consider becoming a government leech on the rest of us, I hope you also will promise never to become an insufferable poormouth underachieving cocksucker whose biggest problem in life is finding somebody with one more dollar you can tax away.

Though I know I shouldn't respond to this, I just can't help myself.

First, I can't see how I could possibly be considered a leech on the economy. I work one full and two part time jobs. I pay all my taxes.

My inclusion of my test scores in my personal anecdote was to say I have essentially been given every opportunity I could have. I had the grades, scores, and relative means to attend Wake Forest, all privileges not afforded to all of my family before me (my father excluded) and many of my friends growing up. Yet my privilege hasn't even afforded me wealth, mostly because my family didn't believe in handouts. My father was a Wake professor while I attended Wake, which is the only reason I was able to afford the tuition, which I worked two or three jobs to help pay for. Many of my Wake friends had everything paid for by their parents, from tuition to cars to spending money, etc. My parents paid my health and car insurance til I graduated and I paid most everything else. I certainly gained a jealousy of the privilege around me, but when I compare it to my extended family, made up of farmers, truck drivers, factory workers, etc., who don't have college funds for their kids, much less trust funds, I count myself lucky.

But to hear some people talk about how money works, I wasted all my privilege by not making bank out of school. I've repeatedly stated that I don't begrudge those who do work for their high wages, nor their prerogative to complain about tax rates. What I don't understand is this petit bourgeois mentality that we all have to live this consumerist lifestyle where $250k a year is middle class and anyone making less isn't living/working up to their potential.

I'm not like bobknightfan. I don't see money as evil. Is it fair that my CEO makes 25 times more than me and works 1/2 the hours? I don't know. I hope tax rates allow him to continue to maintain his standard of living, pay us our contracted wages, and provide for his and his family's future, all things I aspire to some day. In the mean time, I respect and understand the need for taxes. He was born into wealth, I have used federally subsidized loans and still live paycheck to paycheck.

Rambling post, but just some clarification. I'd rather hear Caturday/Tuffalo/people who understand economics responses than yours, DreamOn. You live in a fantasy world.

 

[DreamOnDemOn]

It's a long story and also not clear.

But you can see that overall labor share of income has really fallen off a cliff since 2000. That could be capital-biased technological change or it could be rising monopoly power. I know which explanation I find more convincing.

Doesn't it take more capital and less labor to produce a lot of the things we use now (computers, smart phones, smart bombs, F-22s, intensive care for nearly braindead frogheads)? It seems like that would shift some of the return to capital as oposed to labor.

 

[DreamOnDemOn]

Though I know I shouldn't respond to this, I just can't help myself.

Rambling post, but just some clarification. I'd rather hear Caturday/Tuffalo/people who understand economics responses than yours, DreamOn. You live in a fantasy world.

I shouldn't respond, because you don't want to hear it, but I wasn't trying to belittle your efforts, I was just trying to jerk your chain a little. I'm sure you'll get to be the big bossman soon enough. No one can hold a Wake grad down for long.

 

[AnonymousDeac]

Caturday, you mention that you have never taken any handouts. For all the young aspiring finance people on this board, can you explain how you were able to gain such a high paying job with poor grades? How'd you get your initial interview?

 

[Stan Gable]

I work on Wall Street. live in Manhattan and I voted that it was middle class but its not. I clearly wasn't thinking when I voted. I know what middle class is. The problem in most parts of Manhattan is that there is the ultra rich and then everyone else. Most of the people in the "everyone else" bucket see such great wealth others have so they naturally feel different. I'm single, make 250k+ and I don't feel rich at all. I save (which isn't always a luxury for middle class) as much as I can and pay more in taxes than most people (outside of NYC) make in a year. I believe my tax burden is about right and will be glad to pay more when I make 500k+. 250k is not middle class but its not rich.

 

[DreamOnDemOn]

And people like DoDo & Caturday are perfect examples of the greed & lust...and lack of empathy for society.....that I am talking about.

Why can't we just transfer everything greedy, lusty people like DODO and Caturday have to caring, unselfish lovemuffins like BKF?

 

[ChrisL68]

so Wall Street is just handing out six figure entry level jobs to Wake grads with poor grades?

color me skeptical.

 

[buckets]

I would describe 250k as upper middle class in most cities. Definitely affords a good quality of life but you will still struggle paying for your kids college.

 

[TownieDeac]

Tuffalo, how is an us v them, 99% v 1% dichotomy useful? Are you suggesting a higher tax rate only on the 1%? Otherwise, just seems too facile and reductive to be useful. Is it, in your estimation, more useful to only have two groups rather than 3+? It would seem to marginalize the problems of those around the poverty line if you lump them in the same group as the 250k earners.

Did you mean that the market ameliorating the gap between top 99% and bottom 99% earners would occur if the 1% problem were addressed? This seems to ignore almost every social inequality in between.

 

[WPDeac]

Too many variables to control for in answering this question. As a general matter, public perception will largely be that $250k is not middle class. Throw in geographical differences and the mean of the bell curve shifts right for major metropolitan areas. Also, gross income is probably not the appropriate measure for defining middle class. Really should look at disposable income, or some type of MAGI. Family of 6 making total of $250k while self-paying health insurance premiums <> Single guy/girl kicking it in Manhattan on $250k covered by corporate health plan.

Arguments that "you could live elsewhere" are also meaningless in my opinion - arguably, if someone is fortunate enough to be making $250k they've weighed the opportunity cost of relocation (even within a metropolitan area) to assess a potential trade-off for commute time versus rent/mortgage versus quality of life variables. If paying +30% premium means you can commute in half the time and gain that time with family, hard to measure that in economic terms.

 

[Wrangor]

Ill accept a cash transfer as well. I don't make a quarter million a year so I am probably poor as defined by some.

 

[Wrangor]

so Wall Street is just handing out six figure entry level jobs to Wake grads with poor grades?

color me skeptical.

Real skeptical.

 

[marquee moon]

Caturday, you mention that you have never taken any handouts. For all the young aspiring finance people on this board, can you explain how you were able to gain such a high paying job with poor grades? How'd you get your initial interview?

Caturday prepares his retort: