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The naked truth

I've seen other stuff that suggests most independents are the equivalent of the guy who shows up to the Super Bowl party and asks "Who's playing?"

Many don't know, don't care, or don't care to know.
 
Let's be fair, many R's think that the unwashed masses will respond to their message as well. The pox lands on both houses.

If you want an educated electorate, educate them.
 
R's would rather cut taxes than educate the electorate.
 
blacks would rather beat people down at mcdonalds than attend school

see how easy that is? and it's fun too!
 
I've seen other stuff that suggests most independents are the equivalent of the guy who shows up to the Super Bowl party and asks "Who's playing?"

Many don't know, don't care, or don't care to know.

this.

I live and work among them. They have no idea about the current political scene, they think the pres has the power of a king or dictator, they think they are paying exorbitantly high taxes, many think that anyone we are at war with is as evil as Hitler, they think if we drill for oil in the US gas will be a dollar. They are much more concerned with who they are fucking, what kind of car they are driving, American Idol, their lawn, their clothes, and which Stouffers frozen meal they will be having for dinner with their cheap watered down beer.

I'm a registered independent.
 
this.

I live and work among them. They have no idea about the current political scene, they think the pres has the power of a king or dictator, they think they are paying exorbitantly high taxes, many think that anyone we are at war with is as evil as Hitler, they think if we drill for oil in the US gas will be a dollar. They are much more concerned with who they are fucking, what kind of car they are driving, American Idol, their lawn, their clothes, and which Stouffers frozen meal they will be having for dinner with their cheap watered down beer.

I'm a registered independent.

I think some of these observations are a bit overstated, but essentially I agree with them. I also think these same characteristics apply to many democrats and republicans as well, just fewer as a percentage of those groups.

And here is the crux of the problem. We are $14 trillion in debt. Expenditures will exceed tax revenues by $1.1 trillion this year alone. The federal government is borrowing $4 billion PER DAY just to keep operating. Democrats, republicans, and independents alike need to understand what those figures mean. We are facing an Iceland-like collapse if something isn't done now. We will not fix the problem by cutting Social Security, Medicare, or Defense. We need to do all of that and more. And we need to do it now.

Here is a 2012 election year prediction that will make things worse. One bold candidate or two, maybe Obama, maybe a pub leader, will actually talk during the campaign about some of the painful things that need to be done in order to avoid financial disaster. Then some second tier, probably pub candidate, will try to boost his chances by telling voters that his competitors want to "slash your Social Security, Medicare, ect." There will always be those who care more about getting elected than doing the right thing. And the average American voter needs to grow up and learn to recognize the difference.
 
blacks would rather beat people down at mcdonalds than attend school

see how easy that is? and it's fun too!

Yeah, but I can come up with far more examples of black people in school than Republicans who prefer increasing education funding over cutting taxes.
 
Yeah, but I can come up with far more examples of black people in school than Republicans who prefer increasing education funding over cutting taxes.

Except it's a logical fallacy to assume that simply cutting spending means an entire group isn't interested in education at all. That's stereotyping, and it's why Milhouse called you out.

What about how much administrator salaries and benefit costs have skyrocketed? Do you not agree that something needs to be done to control the skyrocketing costs of education?
 
Except it's a logical fallacy to assume that simply cutting spending means an entire group isn't interested in education at all. That's stereotyping, and it's why Milhouse called you out.

What about how much administrator salaries and benefit costs have skyrocketed? Do you not agree that something needs to be done to control the skyrocketing costs of education?

Yes, but not by defunding it.

Sorry I wasn't more specific. Republicans prioritize cutting taxes over funding education. Republican plans often include programs such as vouchers that outsource the responsibility of educating the electorate to the private sector. If you gave most Republicans a choice between spending on tax cuts or educating the electorate, they'd choose tax cuts. It's a simple point that shouldn't generate much debate since we see it play out every day.
 
I've seen other stuff that suggests most independents are the equivalent of the guy who shows up to the Super Bowl party and asks "Who's playing?"

Many don't know, don't care, or don't care to know.

I'd wager that indpendent voters are more informed and have better educations than the average Democratic or Republican stalwart.
 
Yes, but not by defunding it.

Sorry I wasn't more specific. Republicans prioritize cutting taxes over funding education. Republican plans often include programs such as vouchers that outsource the responsibility of educating the electorate to the private sector. If you gave most Republicans a choice between spending on tax cuts or educating the electorate, they'd choose tax cuts. It's a simple point that shouldn't generate much debate since we see it play out every day.

Absolute bullshit! Most conservatives I know see our public school system as broken and wasteful, but see it as an imperative that these kids get a good education. But you aren't going to fix government schools by throwing more money at them without serious reform. I would have no problem paying higher teachers' salaries (and attracting better teachers) if it was coupled with a very transparent system for hiring/firing/grading teachers without union interference. The government has shown that it doesn't have the ability to educate our children and prepare them for future success.

Otherwise, outsourcing it to the private sector makes a whole lot more sense to me. At least then, parents have a lot more say in who is educating their children and their is incentive for principals and teachers to perform at their highest level to continue to attract parents/students. And I would have no problem with quotas or requirements for taking a certain percentage of minority students (just in case you were getting ready to accuse me of being in favor of school segregation). I actually believe that minority students (at least in Atlanta) would benefit from being in class with students who see getting good grades as being something worth achieving.
 
Yes, but not by defunding it.

Sorry I wasn't more specific. Republicans prioritize cutting taxes over funding education. Republican plans often include programs such as vouchers that outsource the responsibility of educating the electorate to the private sector. If you gave most Republicans a choice between spending on tax cuts or educating the electorate, they'd choose tax cuts. It's a simple point that shouldn't generate much debate since we see it play out every day.

I'm not sure I agree with that, but OK...
 
84, you do realize you're basically making my point, right?
 
Absolute bullshit! Most conservatives I know see our public school system as broken and wasteful, but see it as an imperative that these kids get a good education. But you aren't going to fix government schools by throwing more money at them without serious reform. I would have no problem paying higher teachers' salaries (and attracting better teachers) if it was coupled with a very transparent system for hiring/firing/grading teachers without union interference. The government has shown that it doesn't have the ability to educate our children and prepare them for future success.

Otherwise, outsourcing it to the private sector makes a whole lot more sense to me. At least then, parents have a lot more say in who is educating their children and their is incentive for principals and teachers to perform at their highest level to continue to attract parents/students. And I would have no problem with quotas or requirements for taking a certain percentage of minority students (just in case you were getting ready to accuse me of being in favor of school segregation). I actually believe that minority students (at least in Atlanta) would benefit from being in class with students who see getting good grades as being something worth achieving.

The problem is this scenario doesn't fix the education issue. Now parents get to decide where to spend the tax dollars and will throw it at reputation and passing their children instead of holding their children accountable. The "every child gets a trophy" mentality is a horrible problem in the U.S.

The real need is for reforms like you mentioned in your first paragraph. But just outsourcing does not fix the issue at all. The competitive market will not be defined by educational success, it will be defined by making customers happy like all other competitive markets. In the case of education, making customers happy won't necessarily be increased educational performance. It will be other factors unrelated to education.
 
I don't think anyone is in favor of "just" outsourcing. Why can't we pursue reforms as well as offer parents choices? Since when is it the sole purview of the government to education our kids?
 
I don't think anyone is in favor of "just" outsourcing. Why can't we pursue reforms as well as offer parents choices? Since when is it the sole purview of the government to education our kids?

Shorty, are you sure you guys aren't just trying to agree with me?
 
Yet you seem to be make posts that support my post.
 
I think you are talking past each other. Ph is agreeing with your reforms, but saying you need to put more, not less money into the system to make it work and that cutting educational spending on valid reforms is counter-productive.

Don't mean to put words in anyone's mouths. But, I think many folks on both sides would say, I'll spend more if it's done in a different way, and this can be a consensus point.
 
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