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Rebounding

SugarlandDeac

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Stating the obvious that this is a glaring weakness- both on the offensive and defensive ends. Our guards are substantially outrebounding our 4s and 5s. I'm not pointing fingers at any one player...but others on the board have pointed that out. In the Dayton box score, everything from TOs to FG% and FT% looked unremarkable--and thankfully improved against a decent team. However, we were outrebounded 41 to 29 -- especially on the offensive boards where they had 15, we had 7. Those O-boards are absolute killers, given that 2nd shots have a much higher FG%.

This has to be a laser-focus of the coaching staff--trying to raise the positioning, attitude and aggressiveness on rebounding. Rebounding is more about positioning and desire than height. If we don't improve, we'll get killed all year in league-play
 
By far my biggest concern with Bzzz, because his teams have been terrible rebounding teams going back to his AF days.
 
My post from the game thread:


Bzzz's teams numbers for rebounding at Col and WFU:

2006/7 (year before he got to Col): Colorado: ranked 86 in rebounding
2007/8 (first year @ Col): 322
2008/9: 341
2009/10: 341
2010/11 (first year @ WFU): 275 (Col): 126

What is that phrase?? Once is chance, twice is coincidence and three times is a pattern?

http://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-bas...ate=2011-04-04


don't hold your breath...
 
By far my biggest concern with Bzzz, because his teams have been terrible rebounding teams going back to his AF days.

Yes, Bz has a history of terrible rebounding teams, but I don't think it will be fair to say if this is a glaring coaching weakness or if we simply lack the personnel to rebound effectively until next year's recruiting class comes in (I know this is a huge BzWaitandSee comment, but I think it's only fair)

It's already been pointed out on another thread, but the way our motion offense has run this year, it has frequently left Carson all alone in the low post on offense, making us an even worse rebounding team than we already are. Also, I noticed last night that on defense, Travis would get drawn out to the perimeter or worse, the weak side Wake defender (usually Nikita or Green) would come over to double down on the Dayton player with the ball, leaving the backside rebound open.
 
Agreed for the most part.

Desire and instinct definitely play a major role. But you do have to have some God given abilities, notably a combination of height and leaping ability. I'm going to dominate a junior high kid on the boards no matter how hard he goes after it and how much he wants it.

It speaks volumes that our 6'7 SF takes the jump balls for us over our 7'0 C.

I definitely expect the effort inside all year, just not so sure I will count on seeing results. We are completely void of almost everything at the 4/5 this year.
 
I am Bzz wait and see based on the improvement in the level of play and the solid 12 recruiting class.
 
Agreed for the most part.

Desire and instinct definitely play a major role. But you do have to have some God given abilities, notably a combination of height and leaping ability. I'm going to dominate a junior high kid on the boards no matter how hard he goes after it and how much he wants it.

It speaks volumes that our 6'7 SF takes the jump balls for us over our 7'0 C.

I definitely expect the effort inside all year, just not so sure I will count on seeing results. We are completely void of almost everything at the 4/5 this year.

Rebounding is 100% effort and positioning. The differences between our players and other players in terms of heart is marginal.

Eric Williams was the last great tough big man we had, and he was 1-2"
taller than Travis. Only about 5-6" taller than most of our guards. Don't hide behind our lack of height. We just aren't a tough basketball team.

If people expect things to get better when Ty gets back, you have a short memory. When he and Carson were on the floor together, they were the softest bunch of 7 footers I've ever seen.
 
Rebounding is about effort and instinct. Size helps, but is not absolutely necessary (e.g. messers Barkley and Rodman). Strength is necessary ... to establish and maintain position and to control the ball. Strength is what we need. Carson gets his hands on many balls that he cant control because he has yet to develop the strength required.

We do a poor job of blocking out on our defensive boards. When we double down and are supposed to rotate to the next defender when the shot goes up, we tend to stand around watching the ball rather than finding an opponent and putting a butt on him. If we could improve out aggressiveness in blocking out, our rebounding would improve.
 
then since we run a motion offense our guys have to watch and crash the boards on every shot or we will get murdered in ACC play
 
Thanks Sarge for the research...GOOD GOD that is a HORRIBLE track record for coach Bzzz's teams on rebounding. Agree it's not a coincidence nor is it just our personnel. It's probably a combination of recruiting tough players and/or not drilling them enough to be tougher/better rebounders.
 
Effort and instinct do play a big role, but you guys are minimizing size and physical skills. The Rodmans are the exceptions, not the rules. For every Barkley that makes it as an undersized big that rebounds, there are 50 that do not.

We are not talented at the 4/5 this year. When you combine that with the fact that our only 7 footer is the softest big at Wake since Ricardo Peral, we are going to struggle mightily with boards all season.
 
Rebounding is 100% effort and positioning. The differences between our players and other players in terms of heart is marginal.

Eric Williams was the last great tough big man we had, and he was 1-2"
taller than Travis. Only about 5-6" taller than most of our guards. Don't hide behind our lack of height. We just aren't a tough basketball team.

If people expect things to get better when Ty gets back, you have a short memory. When he and Carson were on the floor together, they were the softest bunch of 7 footers I've ever seen.

Eric Williams was also about 300 lbs when he played for us. Don't fool yourself. We are a bad rebounding team because we have a bunch of players who are poor rebounders. Traditionally fans think that rebounding can be taught...I would argue otherwise. You cannot take a poor rebounder and make him a great rebounder - it just doesn't happen. There is a reason that McKie is a great rebounder at 6'7" and Ari Stewart was a mediocre rebounder at 6'7". It is a skill, and it is honed over many many years of practice.

A coach can certainly influence a player's rebounding, much like he can influence a player's shooting. However if you want to have a good shooting team, you recruit good shooters. If you want to have a good rebounding team you recruit good rebounders. The idea that we can teach Carson to be a great rebounder is silly. We have one good rebounder on this team, and that is McKie. Until we bring in some good rebounders through our recruiting efforts we will continue to be a subpar rebounding team.
 
How much strength does it take to grab and hold a basketball? Jamal Levy and Josh Howard say hello.
 
How much strength does it take to grab and hold a basketball? Jamal Levy and Josh Howard say hello.

Agreed...how about McKie (who is clearly our best rebounder). Rebounding is a skill that cannot be created in a 4 year period. It can be improved, but there must be some underlying skill to develop just like a shooter.
 
Cross-posting this:

Believe it or not, and I'd prefer not to:

Carson actually grabs more rebounds per 40 minutes than Tony and fouls less. It's a small sample size, I know, but we're REALLY overrating Tony. He plays 15 minutes per game on a bad team. It's almost like the only thing that we can remember is the Texas game...
 
I'm always amused at how people try to break down rebounding success and confidently assert that 1 or 2 things are the most important and then the next person says the opposite.
the following all seem like really important factors to me:
height
girth
strength
jumping ability
timing
positioning
softness of hands
strength of hands
desire to beat everyone else to the ball
energy level
type of offense and defensive sets

Some of these can be taught, others prioritized by coach. It's impossible to be a great rebounder without at least 3 or 4 on this list.
There is no big on our team who seems to have more than 2.
How much is under the influence of Bz? Some but most of these things are inherent to the player. If Rodman was wearing a Wake jersey he would've eaten Kavanaugh for lunch yesterday.
 
Agreed...how about McKie (who is clearly our best rebounder). Rebounding is a skill that cannot be created in a 4 year period. It can be improved, but there must be some underlying skill to develop just like a shooter.

Why are [Redacted] teams across different programs consistently poor at rebounding? Even worse than the season before he arrived.
 
John Wooden could coach this team and they would not be great rebounders. Help should be on the way. We won't really know what we have for two years, next year will give us some idea. We have seen vast improvement this year, need more next and then we need to see some really good things.

We are small and weak physically and dont have enough options to hide anybody. Going to be tough for a while but hell, I survived Bob Staak and the recovery time from that fiacso, I can ride this one out.
 
Agreed...how about McKie (who is clearly our best rebounder). Rebounding is a skill that cannot be created in a 4 year period. It can be improved, but there must be some underlying skill to develop just like a shooter.

In [Redacted]'s 7 years as a head coach here are his ranks by OR% and DR% in the nation:

Offensive rebounding national position (starting in 2006, out of 345 teams):

330
332
323
342
341
321
290

Defensive rebounding national position (starting in 2006, out of 345 teams):

235
45 (WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT)
158
220
335
283
297

I'm not trying to start anything, but are we supposed to believe that [Redacted]'s teams over his seven years have had exactly one set of players on their roster (2007 at Air Force) where the team didn't have "skill" to rebound? I think that's a pretty good coincidence. On the other hand one common factor is [Redacted] being the coach.
 
John Wooden could coach this team and they would not be great rebounders. Help should be on the way. We won't really know what we have for two years, next year will give us some idea. We have seen vast improvement this year, need more next and then we need to see some really good things.

We are small and weak physically and dont have enough options to hide anybody. Going to be tough for a while but hell, I survived Bob Staak and the recovery time from that fiacso, I can ride this one out.

I agree. Looking at our current roster and who we have playing significant minutes explains a lot (not all) about our rebounding woes.
 
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