an horable offer to jaybone

Jaybone (and DC),

I am willing to pay out my bet to you immediately if you would be willing to say that Bzzz is not the longterm or short term answer to our basketball situation. All I ask is that you state publically that you were wrong about him as a coach. If you still wish to cast your lot with him, so be it.

Please join us in the real world and understand that he is not a good fit for WFU.

sorry, can't do it. Got to see what transpires next year. I didn't watch the game until last night and didn't know who won/score until then. beauty of living in NY. At least until Syracuse joins the ACC.

I really think we are talent challenged, but I don't understand how we are using Travis. Probably a collection of reasons, but strategy and coaching have to be a part of it.

But I want to see a Bzd offense with some king of post presence. Right now, our post presence is Nikita.

I don't find your offer honorable though. Reactionary, absolutely. I think it more just goading. I still think I win the bet though.

In what world is it "honorable" to bribe someone to say something they don't believe?

Sgt Hulka said:

Jaybone (and DC),

I am willing to pay out my bet to you immediately if you would be willing to say that Bzzz is not the longterm or short term answer to our basketball situation. All I ask is that you state publically that you were wrong about him as a coach. If you still wish to cast your lot with him, so be it.

Please join us in the real world and understand that he is not a good fit for WFU.

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Ha. I just saw this - must have been a slow Saturday night for you to be spending it making up new pointless threads where you pat yourself on the back. Why not just post in the thread dedicated to these bets?

Anyway, I still think you'll lose our bet fair and square, no need to alter anything. Second, although I know it's the mission of many of the [Redacted] bashers to label anyone they can find as BzzIn and make condescending statements such as the above, it IS possible to disapprove of the hire without resorting to things like:

1) Trashing our team
2) Trashing our coaches
3) Using terms like "unwiped ass" and other despicable, pathetic language about Wake Forest and our coaching staff

You want to act like a child and freak out after every loss, be my guest. But I have no interest in being dragged down into the mire with the bullshit a chosen few of this board relentlessly pursue.

My opinion remains exactly as it was before. I never liked the [Redacted] hire. I have never supported the idea that he's a long term solution. We lost a lot of talent for a lot of reasons, but the fact that I despise players with no love or loyalty to Wake puts me in the "good riddance" side of that fence.

Players play the games. Watching us play simple man defense against Stetson last year and getting destroyed was the only thing I needed to know about our true talent level. Figured a 10 win ceiling that year, 15 win ceiling this year after the guys we lost. I don't like [Redacted] but I don't see any other coach doing much more given the circumstances outside of a huge name hire that was never going to happen.

I remain hopeful that next year's class will put us back on solid ground. They seem like great kids and very good players. We need more 3-4 year guys to rebuild the Wake image - more guys like McKie and less guys like Ari. If [Redacted] gets fired this year after never having a chance to coach his own recruits, I think it would poison the coaching search and put Ron's job in jeopardy. I think if we are decent next year but underachieve he can be fired and we're an attractive program again with a lot of young, quality talent.

That has always been my most-likely scenario - [Redacted] as a stepping stone, suffer a couple horrid years, hopefully get us back on better footing next year and make the program attractive again. Then hopefully when some big name coaches are available, upgrade.

That was you being condescending and holier than thou. You do it often. Just wanted to point it out for you, DCDeac. Cheers.

And how is giving [Redacted] 1 year with 6 freshman on his team giving him a true chance to win with "his" players?

I have never quite gotten that rationale.

Not sure if Sarge meant "honorable" or "whorable." In any event, the bone would be well served to wait patiently for the good things that will start taking shape next season.

#buzzin since 2010

When we stink next year the excuse will be youth once again.

Sweet thread Hansel

I really want to know and have yet to see anybody say, why should we expect [Redacted] to be able to change things much when he gets this "great" recruiting class in? First off, do we really expect that class to change the world, aren't they the 5th or 6th ranked class amoung ACC teams? I'm excited we've signed a good class, but I think some are probably over hyping the recruiting class we've got coming in. Second, sure we've lacked talent the last 2 years, but the talent we've had sure hasn't looked to have improved much at all from coaching. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we could have the same win-loss record this season and last season, but if I saw some real improvement in our players from Bzzz's "coaching" I would feel completely different. You can look at teams like UVa and even BC and you can see the coaching improving those teams. I don't see it with our team. Last year's excuse was the bad apples took too much of Bzzz's time and he couldn't focus on coaching our team up. Those guys are gone now, what's the excuse this year?

I ask this as respectfully as I can, somebody please tell me what examples we've seen of [Redacted] making improvements in our team from coaching? Against Stetson last year, we were turning it over too much, rebounding poorly, taking bad shots, not playing tough defense and last Saturday against Clemson and almost all the games in between, those are still our issues. You don't need great talent to run an efficient offense. If you don't have good talent you might miss a lot of shots, but you should be able to run an offense that looks like it has a plan and limits turnovers. You don't need great talent to play hard defense, if you don't have good talent the other team might still get their shots and just be better, but you can still play hard defense and be in the right positions. You don't need great talent to box out and fight for rebounds. If you don't have great talent, the other team might grab more boards because they are just better, but you can still be in position and have people boxed out. That's what bothers me, we were sold that [Redacted] would instill good fundemental basketball and we haven't seen it. I remember several of us after he was announced to replace Dino, saying "It will be nice to have someone that will at least have us running a sound offensive system, instead of standing around watching somebody dribble." Guess what, most of the time we're still standing around watching somebody dribble. What has he done with our team that says, this guy can coach if he's got the right guys????

I haven't watched a lot of BC or UVa, but doesn't BC have like a 6 or 7-man frosh class? And Bennett is in his 3rd or 4th year, correct?

I don't want to make Bzd excuses because he is 50 games in, but I come at this from two angles:

* I want to see a Bzd team with some top to bottom ACC talent. I watched out offense against Clemson in the 1st half with Fields, CJ, Chase, Green, and Carson in the game at one point and was damn thankful Clemson kept fouling - or they kept calling fouls anyway because I saw one guy that should be playing 25+ minutes in an ACC game, one or two guys who should see a hair under 20 minutes (one of whom is a frosh), and two guys not ready to play in an ACC game.

BC had a chance to flood their team with guys their head coach recruited. They may or may not be talent-challenged, but they are Cornell-like players that coach is comfortable with. Are they every gonna make the NCAAs with that level of talent? Dunno

UVa is led by a pre-Bennett 5th year senior who is arguably the ACC player of the year. I like UVa's team and momentum, and I like Bennett, but I will curious how they do next year

* Can't lie and say I was Bzd-on-the-fence, but I am squarely on the fence now. I've been disappointed in the last two/three weeks, particularly on the defensive end. I am of the belief that college kids psyche's play an important role in wins and loses much more so than pros. At the end of the day, pros go home to a nice home knowing that whatever critics say, they are making a ton of money so they have value. College kids go back to their dorm and can't really get away from loses. I watch a kid like Baidu at Clemson and wonder what it must feel like to know that you are in way over your head and will never "earn" your scholarship ... but I digress a bit. For the reasons, DC said and I have said on here for the last week or so - we are better off with Bzd - in my opinion now - until the end of next year or Syracuse/Pitt are added, whichever comes last.

jaybone said:

* Can't lie and say I was Bzd-on-the-fence, but I am squarely on the fence now.

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PROGRESS

Pat Riley knows a little bit about basketball.

If he's buzzin that's good enough for me.

I happen to think the entire "let's see what he can do with 'his' players" argument is total bullshit (not just for Bzz, but for any coach). If you can coach, you can coach. For an example, look at Jim Grobe's first year at Wake--he took Caldwell's guys and immediately made them better. Bzz hasn't done anything to make us think he's capable of that kind of improvement. The sooner he's gone, the better off we'll be.

jaybone said:

sorry, can't do it. Got to see what transpires next year. I didn't watch the game until last night and didn't know who won/score until then. beauty of living in NY. At least until Syracuse joins the ACC.

I really think we are talent challenged, but I don't understand how we are using Travis. Probably a collection of reasons, but strategy and coaching have to be a part of it.

But I want to see a Bzd offense with some king of post presence. Right now, our post presence is Nikita.

I don't find your offer honorable though. Reactionary, absolutely. I think it more just goading. I still think I win the bet though.

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You are correct, sir. It was just goading or needling. BTW, DC you need to lighten up, man. There is no unwiped ass, or anything mean spirited in my OP.

I had forgotten about posting this from the other night post game.

Anyway, Bone and DC, good for you for sticking by your guns. Three to 4 weeks ago I had written off this bet as lost, at least now I have a shot.:thumbsup:

DeacLaw05 said:

I happen to think the entire "let's see what he can do with 'his' players" argument is total bullshit (not just for Bzz, but for any coach). If you can coach, you can coach. For an example, look at Jim Grobe's first year at Wake--he took Caldwell's guys and immediately made them better. Bzz hasn't done anything to make us think he's capable of that kind of improvement. The sooner he's gone, the better off we'll be.

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At least compare it to a basketball program if you're going to make this argument.

How is Brad Stevens doing this year? What about Indiana's recent turmoil? I think if you're going to criticize [Redacted] for anything it's our current crop of freshmen. Sure he got a late start recruiting, but we filled basically no critical spots. We got a 2 who can shoot it, but that's our strongest position.

I think my primary disagreement with the majority of Bzz-outers is just how much difference a coach makes in the short term. I mean, if you really think coaching is to blame for our guys not developing, then the blame is everywhere. Battle, Rusty, [Redacted] - across the board. It's fairly universal that [Redacted] is a solid in-game coach. If you really think it's more scheme than talent, then we just disagree. I feel like we've played a number of games this year where our guys got great looks and good one-on-one opportunities, and we just don't hit shots or win one-on-one battles.

If you tell a team to play man and they give up 90 points, could you go to a junk defense? Go to a zone and hope for a cold shooting night? Sure. But the bottom line is great teams play man 90% of the time almost as a rule.

I mean, we start Nikita, Ty, and Chennault. All 3 are fringe acc backup players. Think about what that says about the depth coming in to give them a break?

Maybe there's a system or a coach out there that wins a few more games with this team. I doubt it. I'm no fan of [Redacted], but that's my rationale for making next year the make-or-break year, as opposed to this one.

another reason is because you were an early defender of bz, and have decided to stick to that early opinion despite overwhelming evidence.

jaybone doing the same.

horable?

jaybone said:

* I want to see a Bzd team with some top to bottom ACC talent.

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This is how I felt for a while, but I've changed my mind in the past couple of weeks.

At this point it is undeniable that [Redacted] has not maximized results with the roster he was given. I think we underachieved last year, and we are underachieving this year.

What makes you think that [Redacted] will maximize results when he has "ACC talent?"

DCDeac, you can stop talking about the Stetson game now. It has fuck all to do with how terrible we are this season.