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George Zimmerman

Les Grossman said:
The part I bolded is stand your ground. Stand your ground means you have no duty to retreat.

The part you bolded is if the Defendant was the initial provoker. Then, stand your ground does not apply.

You're mixing concepts.
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but i see him as the initial provoker. thats where you and I differ
 
Zimmerman describes Trayvon like a kid from a 90s hood movie.

"You gotta fuckin' problem, homie?"
"You gonna die tonight, motherfucka!"
 
WakeandBake said:
but i see him as the initial provoker. thats where you and I differ
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I know you do. If that's the case, then stand your ground does NOT apply and Zimmerman must exhaust all reasonable means to escape.

You just said on the last page: "Stand your ground explicitly says that you have to exhaust all means of escape." That's incorrect. Stand your ground means you dont have to do anything. However, if you do the initial provoking, then it no longer applies and you have to escape.
 
Les Grossman said:
I know you do. If that's the case, then stand your ground does NOT apply and Zimmerman must exhaust all reasonable means to escape.

You just said on the last page: "Stand your ground explicitly says that you have to exhaust all means of escape." That's incorrect. Stand your ground means you dont have to do anything. However, if you do the initial provoking, then it no longer applies and you have to escape.
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right. it is clear that Zimmerman provoked. He could have gone home and taken a defensive position with his gun and his 911 call. He instead got out of his car and took an offensive position by following a man he deemed a threat.
 
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It is far from clear that Zimmerman "provoked.". Is there any evidence to equal provocation other than following Martin on a street with no evidence of any additional words or actions by Zimmerman toward Martin? If that is provocation, then I just did a shit load of provoking leaving a baseball game.
 
Zimmerman saw a guy he thought was a 'bad guy.'

He had a choice - go home and protect himself and his family by arming himself and calling the proper authorities, or get out and pursue him while armed with a weapon. That law's intent was not to protect the latter, its intent was to protect the former.

I don't think he is a cold-blooded murderer. I think he is a reckless dumbass.

It got an innocent man killed. What he did was unlawful as I read that law.
 
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WakeandBake said:
Zimmerman saw a guy he thought was a 'bad guy.'

He had a choice - go home and protect himself and his family by arming himself and calling the proper authorities, or get out and pursue him while armed with a weapon. That law's intent was not to protect the latter, it's intent was to protect the former.
I don't think he is a cold-blooded murderer. I think he is a reckless dumbass.

It got an innocent man killed. What he did was unlawful as I read that law.
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This is spot on IMO
 
WakeandBake said:
Zimmerman saw a guy he thought was a 'bad guy.'

He had a choice - go home and protect himself and his family by arming himself and calling the proper authorities, or get out and pursue him while armed with a weapon. That law's intent was not to protect the latter, its intent was to protect the former.

I don't think he is a cold-blooded murderer. I think he is a reckless dumbass.

It got an innocent man killed. What he did was unlawful as I read that law.
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And to what degree was Trayvon a "reckless dumbass" in this situation?
 
EatLeadCommie said:
And to what degree was Trayvon a "reckless dumbass" in this situation?
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0 degree. He was not committing any crimes. If Zimmerman goes home and calls the cops, nothing happens.

pro·voke   [pruh-vohk] Show IPA
verb (used with object), pro·voked, pro·vok·ing.
1.
to anger, enrage, exasperate, or vex.
2.
to stir up, arouse, or call forth (feelings, desires, or activity): The mishap provoked a hearty laugh.
3.
to incite or stimulate (a person, animal, etc.) to action.
4.
to give rise to, induce, or bring about: What could have provoked such an incident?
5.
Obsolete . to summon.
 
#3 and #4

Martin was provoked. The law says that stand your ground is not a defense for his killer.
 
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Listen to Zimmerman talk and that is all you need to know about this sketch ball .
Throw him in jail and move on.
 
WakeandBake said:
0 degree. He was not committing any crimes. If Zimmerman goes home and calls the cops, nothing happens.

pro·voke   [pruh-vohk] Show IPA
verb (used with object), pro·voked, pro·vok·ing.
1.
to anger, enrage, exasperate, or vex.
2.
to stir up, arouse, or call forth (feelings, desires, or activity): The mishap provoked a hearty laugh.
3.
to incite or stimulate (a person, animal, etc.) to action.
4.
to give rise to, induce, or bring about: What could have provoked such an incident?
5.
Obsolete . to summon.
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What crime did Zimmerman commit when he was following Martin because he thought he was suspicious?
 
Wow. So following a guy is ample excuse to justify an assault? Furthermore, the standards you apply to Zimmerman about having the opportunity to flee apparently don't apply to Trayvon.

By no reasonable standard is an assault an acceptable response to a person who thinks he is being followed. By legal standards, a provocation would be picking a fight. Trayvon did that when he confronted Zimmerman. "Do you have a problem? You do now, motherfucker." That's the fighting equivalent of the old pick-up line, "Do you have any Italian in you? Would you like some?" It indicates that Trayvon had made the decision to beat Zimmerman's ass when a reasonable person would have just walked to his destination and eaten his Skittles.

If Trayvon had lived and there had been no gun involved, Trayvon would be the one in a jail cell and not Zimmerman. It's as simple as that.
 
Les Grossman said:
What crime did Zimmerman commit when he was following Martin because he thought he was suspicious?
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none. Following someone isn't against the law, but it is a provocation. He "induced and brought about" the incident. He "incited" an action from Martin.

He broke the law when he then shot and killed him, according to the law you posted.
 
EatLeadCommie said:
If Trayvon had lived and there had been no gun involved, Trayvon would be the one in a jail cell and not Zimmerman. It's as simple as that.
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That's a large assumption considering many of the facts that are still unknown, and may never be. You also sound like you are completely swallowing Zimmerman's story.
 
A) Trayvon lost Zimmerman, yet Zimmerman kept following him.
B) What would you do if you notice some guy following you in a car at night while you're out walking?
 
Skydog Deac said:
That's a large assumption considering many of the facts that are still unknown, and may never be. You also sound like you are completely swallowing Zimmerman's story.
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I've stated already that Zimmerman's version is THE version because Trayvon Martin is dead, like it or not. We have seen nothing that would refute Zimmerman's version of events. Therefore, what Zimmerman said happened is what we must assume happened.
 
WFFaithful said:
A) Trayvon lost Zimmerman, yet Zimmerman kept following him.
B) What would you do if you notice some guy following you in a car at night while you're out walking?
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I believe what happened was Zimmerman got out of his car and followed him on foot. And if previous posts on this thread are correct, Trayvon's GF told him to run, aka flee, the situation.
 
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