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Chicago teachers are striking

I am not sure how to fix that but a start is stopping statements like "teachers don't need be super smart, just intelligent enough to teach algebra". For shame

Believe it or not there are actually a group of idiots out there advocating that we stop requiring Algebra as part of a standard high school curriculum in this country.

Somewhere in India there are a few million 18 year olds who already have degrees in engineering and probably took Algebra when they were 12 years old, and they are laughing their ass off at the competitive advantage they have over the world's greatest superpower in science and technology for the next few decades.
 
LOL. I've averaged about $75K per year for the last 35 years or so. I'm really fleecing people. You should talk to my clients and see what they think about the value of the service I've provided for them.

We really need a bobknightfan vs. Caturday financial advisor contest.
 
Actually, I am. A sliver of common ground...maybe we can build on it.

Tort reform, in all honesty, doesn't result in lower premiums or health care costs. At least those have been the studies that I've skimmed (not a scholar on the topic by any means). What does happen though is that those with legitimate injuries that have been caused by medical negligence go uncompensated and, curiously, insurance defense lawyers really struggle (don't worry about them though).

It'll be interesting to see the drop off in medmal work over the next three years in NC after tort reformed passed. Places with substantial medmal practices best think about transitioning out of that work.
 
Actually, I am. A sliver of common ground...maybe we can build on it.

Tort reform, in all honesty, doesn't result in lower premiums or health care costs. At least those have been the studies that I've skimmed (not a scholar on the topic by any means). What does happen though is that those with legitimate injuries that have been caused by medical negligence go uncompensated and, curiously, insurance defense lawyers really struggle (don't worry about them though).

It'll be interesting to see the drop off in medmal work over the next three years in NC after tort reformed passed. Places with substantial medmal practices best think about transitioning out of that work.
 
Believe it or not there are actually a group of idiots out there advocating that we stop requiring Algebra as part of a standard high school curriculum in this country.

Somewhere in India there are a few million 18 year olds who already have degrees in engineering and probably took Algebra when they were 12 years old, and they are laughing their ass off at the competitive advantage they have over the world's greatest superpower in science and technology for the next few decades.

Tell me about it. I can't tell you how many Indian employees either I or a colleague have had that are more prepared to work in research than students that attended fairly prestigious universities here in the US. It is really quite sad but that is what is expected when education isn't emphasized and math/science are the things that only nerds need to take.
 
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LOL. I've averaged about $75K per year for the last 35 years or so. I'm really fleecing people. You should talk to my clients and see what they think about the value of the service I've provided for them.

That is the true art of the fleece, making people believe you are actually providing value while in actuality just robbing them blind. Congrats at making your colleagues at Lehman proud.
 
Tell me about it. I can't tell you how many Indian employees either I or a colleague have had that are more prepared to work in research than students that attended fairly prestigious universities here in that US. It is really quite sad but that is what is expected when education isn't emphasized and math/science are the things that only nerds need to take.

Yep. But if we just cut taxes, education will be fine.
 
The guy who said that to extrapolate the strike is about money would be inaccurate. The President of the Chicago School Board.

FIFY

Once again DeacMan makes shit up like it's true.
 
Tort reform, in all honesty, doesn't result in lower premiums or health care costs. At least those have been the studies that I've skimmed (not a scholar on the topic by any means). What does happen though is that those with legitimate injuries that have been caused by medical negligence go uncompensated and, curiously, insurance defense lawyers really struggle (don't worry about them though).

It'll be interesting to see the drop off in medmal work over the next three years in NC after tort reformed passed. Places with substantial medmal practices best think about transitioning out of that work.

I didn't want to hijack this thread. I will say that tort reform, by itself, won't do much. It has to be coupled with a seamless patient record that providers can access and some re-education of providers to cut down on defensive medicine practices.
 
FIFY

Once again DeacMan makes shit up like it's true.

Fact. The teachers were offered 8% and rejected it. Fact, the teachers were offered 16% and rejected it. Fact, the teachers may now accept 16% or may not. Fact, if the strike had nothing to do with money the teachers would never have demanded a 25% raise.

And fact, if the strike were not about money, money never would have been an issue in the strike. There'd have been no demands for more money. There were, and there remain, demands for more money.
 
I honestly can't believe a thread like this exists. I mean seriously, how is even a single person arguing that we shouldn't strive to have the best teachers available? That doesn't always entail more money, but it should always be the goal and better pay will help.



The real problem with teachers, IMO, is that the profession does not receive the respect it deserves. The profession of teaching isn't respected or revered to the same level as many other professions it should be more revered than. The example of lawyers put forth on this thread is perfect. Lawyers serve a purpose in society but if Person A is a lawyer then people view their job, and that person, with more respect than Person B who is a teacher. Same is true for many professions. There is no good reason for that but society dictates it so you naturally have people who may be on the fence about teaching that don't go into because let's face it nobody wants to work for lower pay AND lower respect than they feel they deserve (except research scientists ironically enough). As an intellectual, I hold all my prior teachers in very high regard because I know I wouldn't be where I am now without their instruction. My intellect is what propels me now but it is the knowledge and skills they taught me which allow me to fully utilize my intellect. The same is true for everybody else in the world and yet teachers still don't get the respect they deserve. The point of all this rambling is that the solution isn't about pay, it is about respect. Part of proper respect is proper compensation but our society does not respect teaching/education the way it should and that is what is killing us now. I am not sure how to fix that but a start is stopping statements like "teachers don't need be super smart, just intelligent enough to teach algebra". For shame

You are very right on several different levels. In the age of accountability, the teacher is the scapegoat. Accountability sounds great, but the way they are holding people accountable is absurd. We basically want every child to learn the exact same things and make the exact same scores on a standardized test. The unspoken assumption is that every child is equal. Far from it. States and the federal governments have spent, and continue to spend, gobs of money trying to fit everybody into the same mold. They fiddle with tests to make them easy enough for most to pass yet hard enough to look rigorous. Test making companies have make billions on producing horrible standardized tests with a research proven fail percentage. Remember the horrible reading passage leaked last spring that was used for years in multiple states? Teachers are sworn to secrecy with these tests, now even forbidden from reading the test questions. How many students failed because of that one horrible passage? State and federal officials have developed numerous expensive quick, fix-all programs which are forced on teachers to learn and use, but are often abandoned within a year or two when, surprisingly, they don't work. We are failing teachers and students for what are many times failures in the system. Are there some bad teachers, yes. Bad teachers are only a minuscule part of the problem. This authoritarian, top down approach to education is both ineffective and inefficient. Teachers are not respected by their own district, state, and federal education systems. These systems are dictating more and more of a teacher's daily routine like we are standardizing assembly plant lines in different states. Children are individuals. Teachers are professionals. Treat them both as such.

Problems with students are increasingly the teacher's fault. It is much easier for parents to blame the teacher or the school than to take responsibility for their own shortcomings. If the school doesn't listen, all they have to do is threaten a lawsuit. When I was in school, my teachers and my parents held me accountable to behave and do my work. If I didn't behave, you got a spanking at school and then another when you got home. I'm not necessarily arguing for corporal punishment as I am for parental responsibility.

Finally, the school system itself is creating an image problem. This ties back in with our accountability kick. We are promoting our students and our schools to the community based on the results of a single flawed test. How are you going to feel if your community school is suddenly labeled a failure based on the results of one test? The community loses respect and trust for their school, parents don't trust the teachers, students don't trust their teachers, and the school gets worse instead of better. There is very little real support for failing schools. People swoop in with a little money and a few quick-fixes without a long-term solution. The school fails, gets shut down, and the voucher crowd starts screaming, "I told you so!" Districts and states would be well served to work diligently to remove the stigmas associated with individual schools, not add them. They need to promote that they offer a quality education at all of their schools. They need to develop long term, attainable goals for schools and support them through then entire process. Our schools are good. Don't beat them down, support them.

There are other things that need to be done in regards to teacher training, individualized education plans, planning periods, etc., but building respect is a big part of the fix.
 
I didn't want to hijack this thread. I will say that tort reform, by itself, won't do much. It has to be coupled with a seamless patient record that providers can access and some re-education of providers to cut down on defensive medicine practices.

Oh, just you wait until data from medical devices is collected and tracked in real time. That day is fast approaching. And with it a whole new realm of medical mal practice claims shall follow.
 
Fact. The teachers were offered 8% and rejected it. Fact, the teachers were offered 16% and rejected it. Fact, the teachers may now accept 16% or may not. Fact, if the strike had nothing to do with money the teachers would never have demanded a 25% raise.

And fact, if the strike were not about money, money never would have been an issue in the strike. There'd have been no demands for more money. There were, and there remain, demands for more money.

""Chicago school board President David Vitale wouldn't comment Tuesday ahead of the continued negotiations, but he insisted Monday night the two sides were close on the two major remaining issues -- teacher evaluations and job security.""

As usual you make things up to fit your needs.

You make a GUESS. I give someone who was in the room.

My bad YOU know more than one of the top people in the event.

Your ego and unwillingness to deal with reality are startling.
 
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As usual you make things up to fit your needs.

You make a GUESS. I give someone who was in the room.

My bad YOU know more than one of the top people in the event.

Your ego and unwillingness to deal with reality are startling.

RJ - There is no guessing here. The teachers were offered an 8% raise. They demanded a 25% raise. If money were not an issue in the strike, well, raises never would have been an issue. It ain't hard.
 
RJ - There is no guessing here. The teachers were offered an 8% raise. They demanded a 25% raise. If money were not an issue in the strike, well, raises never would have been an issue. It ain't hard.

You're right there is no guessing. A person PERSONALLY INVOLVED says YOU ARE WRONG:

"Chicago school board President David Vitale wouldn't comment Tuesday ahead of the continued negotiations, but he insisted Monday night the two sides were close on the two major remaining issues -- teacher evaluations and job security."

How in the hell are so EGO DRIVEN and ARROGANT to say YOU know more than he does?

You are AMAZING.
 
I was talking with my girlfriend about this yesterday, and we both suspected this might be the case, but we haven't seen anything verifying that. Where have you been reading it?

Our general theory is this is all about pride on both sides. Rahm won't take shit from anyone, and his handling of labor over the past year has made striking more attractive to the CTU than it would have been otherwise. I also saw a quote from a CTU rep that sounded like they were striking in part to show that they still could in the face of recent legislation passed by the city making it more difficult for them to strike.

I read it on the Tribune's website, but can't find it now. Here it is from a blogger. I'm sure I could find it elsewhere. http://www.chicagonow.com/families-...achers-strike-final-issues-under-negotiation/

As to your second point, I totally believe that. This outside group called Stand For Children pumped a lot of money into getting a piece of legislation passed that increased the percentage of union members needed to authorize a strike to 75%. The president of the organization bragged about how he effectively took away the union's ability to strike. Well 90% of the union - out of the total membership, not just the ones that voted -voted to authorize the strike. There is a big overlap between Stand For Children's big donors and Rahm's big donors.

Rahm is trying to privatize the hell out of CPS. He's got a lot of buddies in the charter school and construction business getting no-bid contracts on these schools. It's a joke that's considered progressive or liberal. He's pretty much a Republican.
 
I'll counter this all day long.

1 - Chicago kids score well below the national average on all standardized tests. They also score well below the national average of large urban areas on all standardized tests. The CPS are considered among the worst in the country, and long have been so considered.

2 - The school year in Chicago is 170 days long (or was until Emmanuel lengthened it). That was actually below the requirements of IL state law.

3 - The school year is well below the average number of days for the nation.

4 - The school day is shorter than the national average as well.

5 - And for all of this the teachers are the highest paid in the country for an urban district.

So no, they shouldn't be paid more to teach more. They should teach more because that's the norm pretty much everywhere else at lower pay than they already receive in Chicago (and with better results).

Sounds like what they really should do is fire them all and start over like they are doing with the highly ineffective cops in Camden NJ.
 
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