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Thread: 2017-2018 NHL Thread – It's Ovi's World Now

  1. #261
    Haha, I really am predictible. But a quick recap outside of my meltdown:

    The players made an offer in the NHL's framework. They asked for $393MM in "make whole." Right in between what they expected fully funded make whole to cost and what the NHL offered. (So the two sides are now officially apart $182MM over the life of the contract.) There was only one change to contracting rights from the last CBA, they have a rule to help stop back-diving contracts. There were things in the offer that the league won't like, and things that seem to be in there as something to give in negotiations, but certainly something to negotiate off of if the league wanted to.

    As I think about this more, I don't think the NHL is trying to go around Fehr to get the players to take their last offer. If they were, they'd have Bill Daly talk instead of Bettman. The players hate Bettman, they know that. I think they are trying to deliver the message that, just because the NHLPA is agreeing to work off of their framework, doesn't mean the league will give up on the other issues easily.

    We'll see how it works out. The players seem to think they made a big movement today, and they are going to be really angry with how quickly it was rejected. But I think Fehr had planned for this. His statements were too rehearsed, the response of players was too fast. There is more negotiation to be done, but they're all burning money in the process.

    I keep reading these two Tweets from one of the Flyers people I follow, and they crack me up.

    FlyersGoalScoredBy @FlyGoalScoredBy
    You have to think all owners and especially players will look back on this privately and say “how fucking stupid was that?”

    FlyersGoalScoredBy @FlyGoalScoredBy
    “ME: Hey, I want to give you money!” “OWNERS & PLAYERS: Not now. We fightin.” #lockoutbottomline #mba #goodbusiness

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Deacon View Post
    I like the 2nd tweet.

    Good work with all the updates. I am too lazy and do not care enough to read long stories about it.
    So you're saying you don't read my posts?

    JK, thanks, I'd be happy to post all my nonsense here just to vent, but I appreciate knowing that other people are fine with my incessant thread-bumping.

    And I'm back to feeling optimistic. Now they really are too close to not get a deal done. It'll just be a stupid, abbreviated season with an asterisk. Let's hope they offer up more to the public than writing "thank you fans!" on the ice, like they did last time.

  3. #263
    If the NHLPA had been making offers within the NHL's framework a few months ago, we might have a deal by now.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by BigEastDeac View Post
    If the NHLPA had been making offers within the NHL's framework a few months ago, we might have a deal by now.
    Same could be said in the other direction.

  5. #265
    Scooter Banks
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigEastDeac View Post
    If the NHLPA had been making offers within the NHL's framework a few months ago, we might have a deal by now.
    I really doubt that, actually.

  6. #266
    Scooter Banks
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    Seeing on Twitter this morning that the union may decertify.

  7. #267
    Warning: pessimistic post incoming.

    Really interesting read on Don Fehr:

    NHL lockout: Owners shouldn't underestimate the Fehr factor

    Long negotiations have key junctures — like Wednesday. One Fehr method is to identify moments of discovery when his union can determine the other side’s true intentions. The union pushes an aggressive proposal, one that usually addresses the concerns of moderate members in the union. That way, it either reaches an agreement soon or the membership toughens once it “discovers” that the actual strategy of the other side is a long fight.
    ………

    Maybe things are different in hockey. Maybe, in two years, Fehr hasn’t solidified his members to anything like the degree he did in baseball. But if he has replicated his MLBPA work, then rejecting Wednesday’s union proposal as a framework for a final compromise is a huge risk for hockey.
    So here's my concern. I'm worried that Bettman will see the NHLPA's willingness to use the NHL's framework, as well as the comments of a few players that aren't so happy with the process, as a sign that they are about to crack. I'm worried that he'll think he can scare the players by dismissing their offer, canceling a few more games, and threatening to decrease their $211MM contribution to make whole. Then maybe they'll be scared into taking the NHL's proposal.

    But, if you believe Fehr has managed to build a strong union like he did in baseball, this wasn't a sign of the players caving. It was a chance for the moderates to have their voice heard and to either make a push to complete a deal or to shine a big nasty spotlight on the unwillingness of the other party to engage. By rejecting the offer outright, Bettman may have just made them stronger. If, when they come back to the table, he finds that the players have dug their heels in and have no plans move towards the owners' offer, what will be his next step? Would he cancel the season over $182MM and a five year limit on contracts?

    But hey, Bettman has been doing this for a long time, and he knows that Fehr has a 30+ year history of working with the MLBPA that they can study to figure out his tactics and plan accordingly. So I'm sure they were well-versed on Fehr's methods and where the MLB faltered, right?

    The most troubling development to me is that hockey’s leaders now sound like MLB owners a generation ago. It’s like a time warp. Two weeks ago, stories appeared intimating that players weren’t getting a straight story from Fehr, that he had his own agenda and owners’ concepts were not getting to the membership in a pure form. That is the one tactic that always backfired when baseball owners used it. It did again.
    Sigh.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadbolt View Post
    Seeing on Twitter this morning that the union may decertify.
    If the new strategy for all team owners (other than the MLB) is "keep saying no until they decertify, then come to an agreement," what a nightmare future CBA negotiations will be.

  9. #269
    Welp.

    "NHL cancels regular-season games through Dec. 14 plus All-Star Weekend (Jan. 26-27) in Columbus, Ohio"

    Always good to see.

  10. #270

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadbolt View Post
    Seeing on Twitter this morning that the union may decertify.
    Hah. I would love to see that.

  12. #272
    Thanks man, I appreciate the support, but avalon has made some really good points.

    FWIW, I'm 100% pro-season.

  13. #273
    I blame all this on Columbus. I mean, obviously the league couldn't find any other way to get out of playing the all-star game there. Now that that has been handled, I fully expect a deal in the next couple of days.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by redwing42 View Post
    I blame all this on Columbus. I mean, obviously the league couldn't find any other way to get out of playing the all-star game there. Now that that has been handled, I fully expect a deal in the next couple of days.
    I think you're onto something. Not only the Columbus factor, but they'd have to have at least one All Star from the home team. No hiding the rep from the host on the rookie team. All Star Vinny Prospal? RJ Umberger? Eek.

    Charity game Operation Hat Trick in AC tomorrow. I don't mind seeing these guys in orange, black and white:

    Last edited by avalon; 11-23-2012 at 07:24 PM.

  15. #275
    Operation Hat Trick was awesome last night. It was so great just seeing all those guys, especially in a small arena.

    We did nothing to make the owners think that fans won't come back. There were long lines to get in before the gates opened, already chanting.

    Loved the atmosphere. Lots of fans from different teams, and they all came together for "Fire Bettman" cheers. But the loudest and clearest chants of the night were "We want hockey," which happened a bunch of times throughout the game and after the end. With about ten seconds left in the game, everyone got to their feet and ended the game with a standing ovation.

    Lunqvist is still a brick wall in the net. He didn't give up a goal in the first period despite 20+ shots. At one point he lost his stick as play was heading the other way. One Philly player gave his stick a nudge to push it away, then another, then another, until it was close to center ice. A ref finally picked it up…. and then went to the corner with it still in his hands instead of giving it back right away. I think he was trying to give Team Philly a chance.

    Arron Asham and Dan Carcillo were messing with each other all night. They were cracking up while doing it, but definitely wanted to mess around like they were about to get into a fight to get a crowd reaction, and the crowd was happy to oblige.

    Vinny from the Jersey shore was the coach of the NY team, for some reason. I'm sure the organizers thought it would be fun, and he thought he was doing something good for charity, but he easily received the second loudest boos of the night (with the loudest going to James Neal. Flyers, Rangers and Devils fans can all unite to boo Penguins, especially those that try to decapitate two Flyers in one shift in a playoff game.) When the Philly team finally scored, the guys skated over in front of the NY bench fist pumping for Vinny.

    Overall it was kind of bizarre love-fest between the players and the fans. It was a blast. And now I'm sad that I definitely won't see another game this year, and likely not this season.

    Puck Daddy writeup

  16. #276
    So, after thinking long and hard, I’ve found new people to blame for the lockout: NBA players and fans.

    Somewhere in the many articles I’ve read in the last week or so there was a paragraph on how angry both sides have become. The reason cited for the owners’ anger? That they didn’t think their demands were unreasonable given what the NBA and NFL players gave up. So that’s what led to this thought process for me.

    The NHL is clearly following the NBA’s script for this lockout. They’re using the same law firm with the same lawyer leading the way. A handful of NHL owners also own NBA teams and went through this last year. Their key demands are pretty much the same, 50/50 split of revenues and decreased contracting rights. And, at the end of the whole mess, the lockout was a pretty huge success for the owners. They basically got what they wanted, they only lost 14 games from the 82 game schedule (and I suspect those were the lowest revenue games of the season), and the fans came back in droves.

    What if the NBA players had held out for more? If the NBA had ended up with a worse deal and/or a cancelled season, would the NHL have gone down the same path?

    And what if the fans hadn’t come back? What if no one had paid attention to the NBA, and the fans had directed their money elsewhere instead of, oh I don’t know, driving licensing revenue up in a shortened season?

    So thanks, NBA players and fans, for screwing us all.

    (I know BigEastDeac will disagree with this post, but I will be really impressed if he finds a way to place the blame on the NBA owners.)

  17. #277
    Looks like feds are mediating?? I'm not sure I understood this completely.

    http://www.fmcs.gov/internet/itemDet...9&itemID=23887

  18. #278
    They're bringing mediators in, starting Wednesday.

    I'd be more optimistic about that if the mediators had helped in the NBA lockout, but at least it's..... something, I guess.

    Bill Daly has already released a statement to say that mediation isn't binding. LOL.

    Edit: Good lord, you beat me by, like, three minutes. How does it take me so long to write even the short posts???

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by avalon View Post
    I think you're onto something. Not only the Columbus factor, but they'd have to have at least one All Star from the home team. No hiding the rep from the host on the rookie team. All Star Vinny Prospal? RJ Umberger? Eek.

    Charity game Operation Hat Trick in AC tomorrow. I don't mind seeing these guys in orange, black and white:

    Jack Johnson would be the Columbus All Star Rep. If the Jackets could ever fix that giant mess, the world would see that Columbus is a great hockey market.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by DeaconForever View Post
    Jack Johnson would be the Columbus All Star Rep. If the Jackets could ever fix that giant mess, the world would see that Columbus is a great hockey market.
    Agreed. It is sad that the fans there have never had a winning team to get behind.

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