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Ongoing gun violence/injury thread

If you don't lock up your gun, no fucking way will you get rates that low in the first place. That blows your whole hypothetical. This dude would be paying $5000 a year in the first place, because he didn't lock up his gun. So he has an incentive TO secure his weapons (to reduce his rate to $100/yr), and the gun is never stolen.

Insurance companies aren't stupid.

I would disagree with your sill assumption that what you says "blows my hypothetical' out of the water, but I'm glad you're so quick to be dismissive.
Who says you keep the gun locked up....If you have a safe and a gun you can say, hey, that's where I keep the gun...but who's to say you actually do? Do you realize the % of guns that actually cause violence? It's an absurdly tiny percentage....there is 0 chance in the world that any insurance on a gun owner would be $5000/year if gun insurance actually existed. I'm still just wondering how gun insurance would change behavior...i'm not saying it can't, but just want to know how it would
 
I would disagree with your sill assumption that what you says "blows my hypothetical' out of the water, but I'm glad you're so quick to be dismissive.
Who says you keep the gun locked up....If you have a safe and a gun you can say, hey, that's where I keep the gun...but who's to say you actually do? Do you realize the % of guns that actually cause violence? It's an absurdly tiny percentage....there is 0 chance in the world that any insurance on a gun owner would be $5000/year if gun insurance actually existed. I'm still just wondering how gun insurance would change behavior...i'm not saying it can't, but just want to know how it would

First, insurers would not insure crazy people. So instead of relying on the non-functional patchwork of state and local reporting/nonreporting of mentally ill people into various non-coherent databases, private industry would figure out how to weed out crazy people PDQ. That would probably mean everyone would have to go through some screening by the insurer to buy a gun. This would (a) slow down gun purchases; (b) reduce crazy people buying guns (like Aurora and VT shooters); and (c) result in the creation of a nationwide database of people who insurance companies have deemed uninsurable, valuable in and of itself. All this would be done by the magical invisible hand of the insurance market.

Second, insurers would pour tons of money into gun research to figure out patterns of gun/ammo purchasing behavior that lead to mass shootings. People stockpiling guns and ammo would get flagged. Their rates would go up until they couldn't afford the behavior anymore. They might even get reported to the police, if the law requiring gun insurance also instructed insurers to do so.

Third, insurers would get pretty tired pretty quick of paying out big judgments when little kids find an unsecured gun and kill themselves by accident. They would start requiring their insureds to have safes and trigger locks, and start making them take safety classes, to get a reasonable rate. all stuff that Scalia would probably find unconstitutional if the government directly ordered it, but through insurance we've made it a matter of private contract. Don't want to buy a gun safe? Fine. Pay $10,000 a year in gun insurance for your snub nose .38. It's a free country. If you promise your insurer to use a gun safe, and when you don't a kid gets killed, the insurer pays out and then bankrupts you to make up some of the loss.

Fourth, insurers would quickly figure out what kinds of guns cause the most deaths. Insurance on those guns would go up. Probably revolvers and other handguns, while rifles and shotguns (even AR-15s) might remain affordable. This will reduce sales and ownership of those guns over time, making our society less gun saturated.

Is gun insurance a panacea? No, it certainly is not. You have to allow people to cancel the insurance if the gun is stolen, and criminals won't carry the insurance. But points 1, 3, and 4 would, over time, result in less guns being available for criminals to steal.

You can argue that the insurance penalizes law abiding people. But we penalize people all the time for doing legal things, or restrict the manner in which they do them, because their legal activity creates risks and costs (externalities) that society shouldn't have to bear. Car insurance is the most obvious example, but alcohol and cigarette taxes also fall into this category. So do motorcycle helmet laws and seatbelt laws. So do fees levied by towns when a developer builds a new road that the town will have to maintain.
 
First, insurers would not insure crazy people. So instead of relying on the non-functional patchwork of state and local reporting/nonreporting of mentally ill people into various non-coherent databases, private industry would figure out how to weed out crazy people PDQ. That would probably mean everyone would have to go through some screening by the insurer to buy a gun. This would (a) slow down gun purchases; (b) reduce crazy people buying guns (like Aurora and VT shooters); and (c) result in the creation of a nationwide database of people who insurance companies have deemed uninsurable, valuable in and of itself. All this would be done by the magical invisible hand of the insurance market.

Second, insurers would pour tons of money into gun research to figure out patterns of gun/ammo purchasing behavior that lead to mass shootings. People stockpiling guns and ammo would get flagged. Their rates would go up until they couldn't afford the behavior anymore. They might even get reported to the police, if the law requiring gun insurance also instructed insurers to do so.

Third, insurers would get pretty tired pretty quick of paying out big judgments when little kids find an unsecured gun and kill themselves by accident. They would start requiring their insureds to have safes and trigger locks, and start making them take safety classes, to get a reasonable rate. all stuff that Scalia would probably find unconstitutional if the government directly ordered it, but through insurance we've made it a matter of private contract. Don't want to buy a gun safe? Fine. Pay $10,000 a year in gun insurance for your snub nose .38. It's a free country. If you promise your insurer to use a gun safe, and when you don't a kid gets killed, the insurer pays out and then bankrupts you to make up some of the loss.

Fourth, insurers would quickly figure out what kinds of guns cause the most deaths. Insurance on those guns would go up. Probably revolvers and other handguns, while rifles and shotguns (even AR-15s) might remain affordable. This will reduce sales and ownership of those guns over time, making our society less gun saturated.

Is gun insurance a panacea? No, it certainly is not. You have to allow people to cancel the insurance if the gun is stolen, and criminals won't carry the insurance. But points 1, 3, and 4 would, over time, result in less guns being available for criminals to steal.

You can argue that the insurance penalizes law abiding people. But we penalize people all the time for doing legal things, or restrict the manner in which they do them, because their legal activity creates risks and costs (externalities) that society shouldn't have to bear. Car insurance is the most obvious example, but alcohol and cigarette taxes also fall into this category. So do motorcycle helmet laws and seatbelt laws. So do fees levied by towns when a developer builds a new road that the town will have to maintain.

I hear what you're saying but I just don't see how it changes people's behavior of people. You can mandate locks and safes but people don't have to use them, rates wouldn't be high enough to deter a lot of people from owning guns and any rate increase for whatever reason would just keep an individual from owning guns.
It may keep the crazies from owning and such (but that's something you could do without insurance). You couldn't charge outrageous premiums because it would be too much of a racquet....lots of people own guns and such a small, small percentage of guns are involved in any shootings so initial premiums very likely be pretty manageable and and increase in insurance rates wouldn't be a deterent for "unsafe gun practices" (because the penalty for unsafe gun practices is much worse than increased insurance...there is very little someone can catch you "acting unsafe" with a gun and report you to the insurance company like cops can catch speeding cars to increase your car insurance)
 
3 economists on whether gun owners should have to buy insurance:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013...ve-to-buy-liability-insurance?ft=1&f=93559255

Thanks for posting.

The one guy who objects, objects on the grounds that "bad people will still get guns". Which I think is a knee-jerk, gun lobby reaction to every proposal, and there's no real thought behind it. He doesn't bother to take the extra step and think about how bad people get their guns. They get them by buying them or stealing them from good people. If we set it up so that good people can't sell their guns to anyone without verifying insurance, and give good people incentives to keep their guns secured, you reduce the ability of the bad people to obtain them.
 
I hear what you're saying but I just don't see how it changes people's behavior of people. You can mandate locks and safes but people don't have to use them, rates wouldn't be high enough to deter a lot of people from owning guns and any rate increase for whatever reason would just keep an individual from owning guns.
It may keep the crazies from owning and such (but that's something you could do without insurance). You couldn't charge outrageous premiums because it would be too much of a racquet....lots of people own guns and such a small, small percentage of guns are involved in any shootings so initial premiums very likely be pretty manageable and and increase in insurance rates wouldn't be a deterent for "unsafe gun practices" (because the penalty for unsafe gun practices is much worse than increased insurance...there is very little someone can catch you "acting unsafe" with a gun and report you to the insurance company like cops can catch speeding cars to increase your car insurance)

Fair enough. Nonetheless, it's the only thing I can think of that I believe would have a significant impact on gun violence while still having a good chance to pass constitutional muster. SCOTUS will never allow a handgun ban, since handguns are the most useful for self-defense and SCOTUS is going to protect that as a fundamental right. I think an assault weapons ban is silly security theater, and this SCOTUS might not let that stand anyway. A national registry is good for solving crimes after the fact but doesn't do much to prevent them, and would probably meet with massive noncompliance. People have constitutional objections to a registry anyway, which I don't find convincing, but SCOTUS might.
 
first, the courts have to establish that a gun owner is responsible for actions with a stolen gun.
 
3 economists on whether gun owners should have to buy insurance:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013...ve-to-buy-liability-insurance?ft=1&f=93559255

What do you take away from this article?
I don't see any legitimate points except that gun insurance would help cover the liabilities of the owners of guns that are involved in crimes....a point that I don't think anyone could/would disagree with

I don't think requiring insurance would have a huge impact of the number of people who own guns....it would certainly have a marginal impact, but I don't think it would be that huge. Would it limit large arsenals? Probably, to an extent at least, but I would argue that crimes caused by guns in large (legal) arsenals are statistically insignificant. I don't think gun liability insurance would be restrictive because car liability insurance isn't very restrictive. Car deaths far out number unjustifiable/accidental gun deaths* so I would imagine gun liability insurance would be less than car liability insurance

*Of course there are many more cars on the road than guns in homes, but a huge constituent of car liability coverage is property damage....something you don't have to worry about with guns....so what's the point here? They obviously aren't the same but I'm trying to use car insurance as an analog for gun insurance to illustrate why I don't think gun insurance would be that much.
Also, I don't know what car accident statistics are, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect that 1 out of 6 people will be responsible for some kind of car accident in their lifetime (where their insurance has to cover some liability....usually a few grand in property)....of course the number people involved in gun accidents/crimes would have to be well under 1 out of 1000 (of course gun accident/crimes are much costlier on average than car accidents)...so again, just throwing those out as things to think about.
 
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What do you take away from this article?
I don't see any legitimate points except that gun insurance would help cover the liabilities of the owners of guns that are involved in crimes....a point that I don't think anyone could/would disagree with

I don't think requiring insurance would have a huge impact of the number of people who own guns....it would certainly have a marginal impact, but I don't think it would be that huge. Would it limit large arsenals? Probably, to an extent at least, but I would argue that crimes caused by guns in large (legal) arsenals are statistically insignificant. I don't think gun liability insurance would be restrictive because car liability insurance isn't very restrictive. Car deaths far out number unjustifiable/accidental gun deaths* so I would imagine gun liability insurance would be less than car liability insurance

*Of course there are many more cars on the road than guns in homes, but a huge constituent of car liability coverage is property damage....something you don't have to worry about with guns....so what's the point here? They obviously aren't the same but I'm trying to use car insurance as an analog for gun insurance to illustrate why I don't think gun insurance would be that much.
Also, I don't know what car accident statistics are, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect that 1 out of 6 people will be responsible for some kind of car accident in their lifetime (where their insurance has to cover some liability....usually a few grand in property)....of course the number people involved in gun accidents/crimes would have to be well under 1 out of 1000 (of course gun accident/crimes are much costlier on average than car accidents)...so again, just throwing those out as things to think about.

Vehicular deaths don't far exceed gun deaths. In fact, they're almost even (both are around 30,000 annually). About 90% of households possess a motor vehicle. About 50% (I'm rounding, I think it's more like 48%) of households possess a firearm.
 
As to ongoing violence, a 15 yo girl who played in on of the bands at the inauguration parade was shot and killed in Chicago while at a park.
 
Vehicular deaths don't far exceed gun deaths. In fact, they're almost even (both are around 30,000 annually). About 90% of households possess a motor vehicle. About 50% (I'm rounding, I think it's more like 48%) of households possess a firearm.

I think the notion that gun deaths are approaching car deaths is a little misleading because for the most part I feel that people are really only talking about homicides and accidents here...I'm ignoring suicide
There were approx 11,100 homicides in 2011...and 851 accidental deaths (versus over 19,000 gun suicides) so lets call it 12,000 gun deaths
I'm going to assume that all 32,367 motor vehicle deaths (down from about 43,000 in 2002) in 2011 were accidental (although i'm sure a least a few weren't..i.e suicide by car)

So that's where I got the "Car deaths far outnumber gun deaths"...if you exclude gun suicides it's nearly 3 to 1, car to gun deaths
 
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I think the notion that gun deaths are approaching car deaths is a little misleading because for the most part I feel that people are really only talking about homicides and accidents here...I'm ignoring suicide
There were approx 11,100 homicides in 2011...and 851 accidental deaths (versus over 19,000 gun suicides) so lets call it 12,000 gun deaths
I'm going to assume that all 32,367 motor vehicle deaths (down from about 43,000 in 2002) in 2011 were accidental (although i'm sure a least a few weren't..i.e suicide by car)

So that's where I got the "Car deaths far outnumber gun deaths"...if you exclude gun suicides it's nearly 3 to 1, car to gun deaths

You said unjustifiable gun deaths...I wouldn't consider suicide a justifiable gun death, and I don't think those deaths should be discounted from this conversation. How many of those suicides are kids who are able to access the guns owned by their parents/relatives/friends/etc.? I don't think you can take the suicide number out of the equation.
 
You said unjustifiable gun deaths...I wouldn't consider suicide a justifiable gun death, and I don't think those deaths should be discounted from this conversation. How many of those suicides are kids who are able to access the guns owned by their parents/relatives/friends/etc.? I don't think you can take the suicide number out of the equation.

Means matter.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/
 
There should be a very simple law (which the GOP would hate). If a gun you bought is used in a crime and you haven't reported ti stolen before that date or reported a sale of it, you are responsible for the damages.
 
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