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income inequality debate

It's not nonsense. Comparative standard of living is a factor, but absolute standard of living is also a factor. If efficiencies massively improve the standard of living overall across the board, then it can be a net societal benefit even if inequality increases.

For lack of a better term, I would focus on "median quality" as more important measure than a comparative standards. Our standard of living is so high that abundance is actually an independent problem, in that 34.9% of US adults are obese. Check this out (esp. the parts about gender, income and obesity): http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db50.pdf

Ph's familiar question of how better to utilize the people left behind by advances in automation and globalization made me think of something that the church around the corner from our house is doing. Since no one has used the baseball field behind their church in 25 years, they plowed the thing under and turned it into a "Grow a row for the hungry" project. People adopt a raised bed and 50% of the production is donated to local charities. This is our first year doing it and I spend about three hours a week there, mostly watering and pulling weeds. It is still early, but some of the things people are pulling out of the ground are nothing short of incredible (and significantly better in quality than you can overpay for at the Whole Foods less than a 1.5 miles away). That last part was what got me thinking: with a relatively small investment of time, space, water and sunlight that each fall freely from the sky, for $10.00 in seeds you can eat as good or better than the vegetable portion of the produce section where the Doctor's family shops. I've tried gardening with limited success in containers for years, but being around a lot of the volunteers (most of whom are retirees and hobbyists without any formal education beyond trial, error and oral tradition) has really opened by eyes to what can be done in the area the size of an abandoned Little League infield.

How many abandoned factories could be converted to working urban farms? I like getting dirt under my fingernails on the weekend and have raised chickens for the last three years for egg production, and have been reading books on dairy goats. If you are so inclined, you can raise poultry for meat and eggs, goats for milk and cheese (two goats require less than 40 square feet of space to range, plus a shed for sleeping), and there aren't many things you can't grow with time, water and space (settle down W&B). You can buy a live week-old chicken from Tractor Supply for $2.00 each, and they eat grass, bugs, rinsed egg shells, and vegetable scraps (and yes, they will eat their own eggs). I don't believe that the answer to globalization is to start a million urban farms, but how much of a difference would it make in terms of the quality of food people in low income communities would have access to if you took one unused manufacturing facility (provided it wasn't on the Superfund list), or some other urban space like a legacy school property or church yard and let people who needed or wanted quality food to farm the place for free do so? The families that don't have time or energy to work there would be great consumers at an on-site farmer's market (which under local law is exempt from sales tax; and gives the people who put in the effort a yield that they can take home with them on top of their production) with excess production being donated to the hungry.

It may not solve every problem, but turning people back towards agriculture certainly moves some of the human capital off of the sidelines, has a barrier to entry that consists entirely of being able to turn the handle on a chain link fence, and presents an attractive alternative to using deficit-financed public assistance to purchase genetically modified food doused in pesticides grown by migrant labor in California, packaged and shipped across the country on trains and trucks running on Saudi oil.
 
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It may not solve every problem, but turning people back towards agriculture certainly moves some of the human capital off of the sidelines, has a barrier to entry that consists entirely of being able to turn the handle on a chain link fence,

That, and you need land.

PS - I like the agrarian concept and think it's a great idea to get communities involved in such things.
 
That, and you need land.

In our case, we're talking about the surface area the size of a little league infield. They left the fence up to keep the deer out. A fifth grader could throw a baseball from any corner and clear any span. Detroit has urban meadows the size of city blocks.

What about a tax incentive for companies to open unused land to community gardens? It wouldn't require ceding any title; just access. Kind of like Rails-to-Trails.
 
There is a dramatic and growing differential in life expectancy for the well off and the poor.

http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_20080716/

As you can expectancy for the well off has gone up 3.4 years for the well off since 1980 versus 1.7 years for the less well off. They are falling behind in relative length of life.


RJ would like the like the rich to have a 4 year shorter life expectancy even if it means that the poor lose two years from their life expectancy? Do we all have to die at the same early age to prove we are not letting the rich take advantage of the poor? RJ, your thinking on this is derranged.
 
If the odds are stacked against you getting out of poverty. if the odds of being a minority male in the US and being in the prison system is still ridiculously high, your premise is BS.

You have a paternalistic, white upper-middle class position. it doesn't fly in the real world.

Full Definition of PATERNALISM
1
: a system under which an authority undertakes to supply needs or regulate conduct of those under its control in matters affecting them as individuals as well as in their relations to authority and to each other

To quote the Princess Bride "I don't think that word means what you think it means." I do however agree that one of us is suggesting a move towards paternalism.

As far as the real world....Ask the hundreds of millions who, in the last few decades, have been lifted to the point where survival is no longer an issue about the real world. They are the ones who have seen the greatest benefit. Think about the new technological developments that are likely to be created by their children as their economies continue to expand. Think about the real benefits those discoveries will bring to people throughout the world.
 
The boomers need to start exiting the workforce to make way for younger employees.

No. That seems right until you realize that when the leave the workforce, they're going to be on SS, Medicare, etc for the next 15, 20, 30+ years.

We need them to be as productive as possible before they pack it in.

As far as younger workers, we need to encourage entrepreneurship instead of training them to just take a spot in the workforce that may not be there going forward. Job creation isn't a goal. It makes no sense to train young people to work jobs that are reluctantly created until technology renders the job obsolete.

jhmd, good ideas about agriculture. Still need to "teach a man to farm" though.
 
poor people realize they can sign up for the army, right? we still need you, poors!
 
Full Definition of PATERNALISM
1
: a system under which an authority undertakes to supply needs or regulate conduct of those under its control in matters affecting them as individuals as well as in their relations to authority and to each other

To quote the Princess Bride "I don't think that word means what you think it means." I do however agree that one of us is suggesting a move towards paternalism.

As far as the real world....Ask the hundreds of millions who, in the last few decades, have been lifted to the point where survival is no longer an issue about the real world. They are the ones who have seen the greatest benefit. Think about the new technological developments that are likely to be created by their children as their economies continue to expand. Think about the real benefits those discoveries will bring to people throughout the world.

In the US people are falling farther behind. The reality of being born and dying in poverty is growing. The gaps in education, housing and other factors are growing in the US. These are facts.
 
In our case, we're talking about the surface area the size of a little league infield. They left the fence up to keep the deer out. A fifth grader could throw a baseball from any corner and clear any span. Detroit has urban meadows the size of city blocks.

What about a tax incentive for companies to open unused land to community gardens? It wouldn't require ceding any title; just access. Kind of like Rails-to-Trails.

I pass by an inner-city area every day going to and from work where some guy has planted rows and rows of crops within one of Duke Power's overhead powerline easements. I have no idea if there is any formal agreement with Duke or if he just started doing it, but they haven't kicked him off and he is out there all the time with his tractor or walking through the rows. He then has a little stand that he set up on the edge to sell the produce, like what you are talking about.

ETA: typing this got me thinking about it, so I google satellite imaged it to see what it is. It is definitely Duke's land, because there is a substation on the other end of the lot away from the road that the crops are towards. How do I link a google satellite image here?
 
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I find myself agreeing with many of Mangler's points, but still fail to see how tax breaks for the wealthy help income inequality.

Perhaps the difference is that Mangler does not feel that income inequality is actually a problem that needs to be "helped".

At current first world levels, and given the standard of living that even the poorest generally have in the first world, that may be correct, at least right now. However if wealth is continually concentrated, and growth for everyone else is either nonexistent or almost invisible as Pinketty believes will be the case in the first world for the forseeable future, there will be a breaking point somewhere and sometime. In the past those breaking points have been pretty nasty things.
 
I have no idea how this would play out- but it would be interesting to see what impact the Church has had on this conversation. Obviously, the Church has been power/money hungry since Constantine. Imo, the issue isn't so much about governments/taxes/welfare, but rather our love of money (which is where actually following the teachings of Jesus would make a difference). The changes being seen in Africa through the promulgation of the prosperity gospel is rather astounding, but there is also a reason why that "message" has taken hold in America so strongly, especially among those lower on the economic scale. I'm getting all preachy, I know, but there are more than enough resources to go around. I'm not talking about redistributing wealth (though, I'm not against that), but just not being a selfish and hoarding ass.
 
I find myself agreeing with many of Mangler's points, but still fail to see how tax breaks for the wealthy help income inequality.

They don't necessarily but they can make investing more attractive. Investment leads to many of the advancements in living standards. I care more about living in continually improving conditions than equality. The Soviet Union had a great deal of equality and they had to build walls to keep their population from emigrating to countries with less equality but better living conditions.
 
There is no hope if you believe closing the income gap means killing off the rich.

If you want the less fortunate to live longer, the rich are almost certainly going to live even longer still. I don't care if Bill Gates lives an extra ten years if I have the opportunity to live an extra five years. Resenting his life expectancy advantage might eat into my five years. Why don't we worry about letting everybody do as well in life as possible, even if some are at one end of the bell curve?
 
No. That seems right until you realize that when the leave the workforce, they're going to be on SS, Medicare, etc for the next 15, 20, 30+ years.

We need them to be as productive as possible before they pack it in.

As far as younger workers, we need to encourage entrepreneurship instead of training them to just take a spot in the workforce that may not be there going forward. Job creation isn't a goal. It makes no sense to train young people to work jobs that are reluctantly created until technology renders the job obsolete.

jhmd, good ideas about agriculture. Still need to "teach a man to farm" though.


I agree with everything you've said here. I don't think we are that far apart on this issue.
 
If you want the less fortunate to live longer, the rich are almost certainly going to live even longer still. I don't care if Bill Gates lives an extra ten years if I have the opportunity to live an extra five years. Resenting his life expectancy advantage might eat into my five years. Why don't we worry about letting everybody do as well in life as possible, even if some are at one end of the bell curve?

A fine point. RJ with the scorpion-frog logic hard at work in this one.
 
No. That seems right until you realize that when the leave the workforce, they're going to be on SS, Medicare, etc for the next 15, 20, 30+ years.

We need them to be as productive as possible before they pack it in.

As far as younger workers, we need to encourage entrepreneurship instead of training them to just take a spot in the workforce that may not be there going forward. Job creation isn't a goal. It makes no sense to train young people to work jobs that are reluctantly created until technology renders the job obsolete.

jhmd, good ideas about agriculture. Still need to "teach a man to farm" though.

You and I deal with people fairly far apart on the age spectrum. I am amazed by the high percentage of retirees who grew up on a farm, and it crosses about every demographic line out there. The number of "third career-types" who would jump at the chance to work on one of these places is unleveraged potential, especially if they could consult while the younger crowd does the heavy lifting.
 
You and I deal with people fairly far apart on the age spectrum. I am amazed by the high percentage of retirees who grew up on a farm, and it crosses about every demographic line out there. The number of "third career-types" who would jump at the chance to work on one of these places is unleveraged potential, especially if they could consult while the younger crowd does the heavy lifting.

I think you may have come up with one way to address both issues in my post above.
 
People like to eat. Technology will not change that any time soon.

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk
 
If you want the less fortunate to live longer, the rich are almost certainly going to live even longer still. I don't care if Bill Gates lives an extra ten years if I have the opportunity to live an extra five years. Resenting his life expectancy advantage might eat into my five years. Why don't we worry about letting everybody do as well in life as possible, even if some are at one end of the bell curve?

The familiar trickle. We would all be better off if we let the rich do whatever they wanted.
 
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