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About that "World's Best Healthcare System" the U.S. is supposed to have...

And it still is a lot cheaper, in most other civilized countries with sane systems for administering it.

Health care sure was a lot cheaper without any form of government rationing and without the need for a supplemental private health care system back before 1965, in fairy tale land.
 
Health care was a lot cheaper in 4000 B.C. when there was no government running it at all. If you jammed a finger they just cut that son of a bitch off for free. Now that's AMERICA.
 
But yeah health care was great before 1965 if you were rich and white.

and didn't need an MRI, or want your cancer treated, or want to have incredibly complex surgery performed by robots through a tiny incision, or any of a million other very expensive things that didn't exist in 1965 so even rich white people just stayed sick or died.
 
and didn't need an MRI, or want your cancer treated, or want to have incredibly complex surgery performed by robots through a tiny incision, or any of a million other very expensive things that didn't exist in 1965 so even rich white people just stayed sick or died.

Oh yeah! It's almost as if things were different before 1965 than they are today. Really weird.
 
I am claiming that health care in the US was a better deal in 1964 for the health care available in 1964 than it is today for the health care we have available today. I believe that medical care would be more advanced and much cheaper today if government had stayed out of it. Consumer electronics is relatively free of government intrusion and has advanced rapidly with a reduction in costs. Some of the reasons were recounted in the link I posted above.
 
Consumer electronics is about the worst possible comparison to medical services.

Consumer electronics are discrete, empirically testable, easily compared and researched consumer goods that provide a pre-defined set of experiences without regard to the personal characteristics of the individual purchasing them. They are optional items that no one needs to survive, and so are not purchased under any particular time pressure. They are therefore very susceptible to price competition and the market for them is quite efficient.

Medical services are classic credence goods. They are not discrete, since any given procedure or medicine is (or should be) part of a interrelated course of treatment customized to the individual. They are not easily compared and researched due to the opacity of pricing and the extremely specialized knowledge required to intelligently choose between different medical approaches. Even if steps were taken to make pricing and outcomes more readily available so that market participants could try to compare and research them, the outcome (and therefore the total cost) of a given medical service varies widely based on the individual characteristics of the purchaser, and is not knowable before the medical service is delivered. Many medical services are not optional (or at least, the option to receiving the service is very, very bad) and many of them are delivered under extreme time pressure, when no one has any ability to price shop. The market for medicine is, in other words, extremely inefficient, with all the market power resting with suppliers and very little resting with consumers. At the edges, with optional, simple, and non-time pressured services (like Lasik or simple dermatology procedures, exactly the examples your article used) an efficient market can develop. The overwhelming majority of medical care, however, and especially and particularly the care that costs the most, is not susceptible to any kind of reasonable market forces, and never will be.

Furthermore, the health of a country's population is a public good, leading to greater productivity and national wealth in the long run. In that way, it is very similar to security, efficient justice systems for the resolution of disputes, and secure property rights. Since health is a public good that cannot reasonably be delivered by the private market, governments should take steps to provide the services required by their populations.
 
Consumer electronics is about the worst possible comparison to medical services.

Consumer electronics are discrete, empirically testable, easily compared and researched consumer goods that provide a pre-defined set of experiences without regard to the personal characteristics of the individual purchasing them. They are optional items that no one needs to survive, and so are not purchased under any particular time pressure. They are therefore very susceptible to price competition and the market for them is quite efficient.

Medical services are classic credence goods. They are not discrete, since any given procedure or medicine is (or should be) part of a interrelated course of treatment customized to the individual. They are not easily compared and researched due to the opacity of pricing and the extremely specialized knowledge required to intelligently choose between different medical approaches. Even if steps were taken to make pricing and outcomes more readily available so that market participants could try to compare and research them, the outcome (and therefore the total cost) of a given medical service varies widely based on the individual characteristics of the purchaser, and is not knowable before the medical service is delivered. Many medical services are not optional (or at least, the option to receiving the service is very, very bad) and many of them are delivered under extreme time pressure, when no one has any ability to price shop. The market for medicine is, in other words, extremely inefficient, with all the market power resting with suppliers and very little resting with consumers. At the edges, with optional, simple, and non-time pressured services (like Lasik or simple dermatology procedures, exactly the examples your article used) an efficient market can develop. The overwhelming majority of medical care, however, and especially and particularly the care that costs the most, is not susceptible to any kind of reasonable market forces, and never will be.

Furthermore, the health of a country's population is a public good, leading to greater productivity and national wealth in the long run. In that way, it is very similar to security, efficient justice systems for the resolution of disputes, and secure property rights. Since health is a public good that cannot reasonably be delivered by the private market, governments should take steps to provide the services required by their populations.

Health care is not a public good. This is from The Economics of Health and Health Care, fourth edition:

"Are health care services public goods? Health services provided to one person are not at the same time consumed by others. Also, those who do not pay can be excluded from receiving care. Therefore health care services are private goods." Public health measures like water purity and vaccinations are public goods.

Health care is absolutely susceptible to market forces. The emergency care you are worried is about 2% of health care costs http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/oct/28/nick-gillespie/does-emergency-care-account-just-2-percent-all-hea/ and can be insured against at market rates.
 
Health care is not a public good. This is from The Economics of Health and Health Care, fourth edition:

"Are health care services public goods? Health services provided to one person are not at the same time consumed by others. Also, those who do not pay can be excluded from receiving care. Therefore health care services are private goods." Public health measures like water purity and vaccinations are public goods.

Health care is absolutely susceptible to market forces. The emergency care you are worried is about 2% of health care costs http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/oct/28/nick-gillespie/does-emergency-care-account-just-2-percent-all-hea/ and can be insured against at market rates.

I really don't think your assertions in this matter are provable. There is no place in the world where (a) health care is provided in a free market AND (b) you or any other American would actually want to live. Modern healthcare as a market good is a fantasy that has never been empirically proven to work. On the other hand, there are actual, real life, free, democratic, highly advanced societies on the plane that run healthcare as a public good, get results as good or better than ours, and do so at a much lower cost per capita.

I really don't care what a textbook says about categorizing health services. It's a political question, not a universal constant, no matter what some economist believes. Many nations have written access to health care into their constitutions as a basic right, and the UN considers access to medical care a universal human right. It's extremely clear to me that no efficient market in healthcare exists or ever will - so instead of relying on theories expounded by long dead Austrians, I simply look at the world around me and observe actual systems that work a hell of a lot better than the one we have, and suggest that maybe we ought to try doing it that way.
 
I really don't think your assertions in this matter are provable. There is no place in the world where (a) health care is provided in a free market AND (b) you or any other American would actually want to live. Modern healthcare as a market good is a fantasy that has never been empirically proven to work. On the other hand, there are actual, real life, free, democratic, highly advanced societies on the plane that run healthcare as a public good, get results as good or better than ours, and do so at a much lower cost per capita.

I really don't care what a textbook says about categorizing health services. It's a political question, not a universal constant, no matter what some economist believes. Many nations have written access to health care into their constitutions as a basic right, and the UN considers access to medical care a universal human right. It's extremely clear to me that no efficient market in healthcare exists or ever will - so instead of relying on theories expounded by long dead Austrians, I simply look at the world around me and observe actual systems that work a hell of a lot better than the one we have, and suggest that maybe we ought to try doing it that way.

One of my relatives needed emergency appendectomy in 1962. I saw the hospital bill a few years ago and it was something like $300. She didn't have insurance, but she paid the bill off over a few months. She got insurance after that for a few dollars a month. It is not theory, 923. People cooperating with one another to make a profit will deliver the best health care available to the most people at the lowest possible cost.
 
One of my relatives needed emergency appendectomy in 1962. I saw the hospital bill a few years ago and it was something like $300. She didn't have insurance, but she paid the bill off over a few months. She got insurance after that for a few dollars a month. It is not theory, 923. People cooperating with one another to make a profit will deliver the best health care available to the most people at the lowest possible cost.

Huge behavioral fallacy here. Chasing returns. Smh.
 
One of my relatives needed emergency appendectomy in 1962. I saw the hospital bill a few years ago and it was something like $300. She didn't have insurance, but she paid the bill off over a few months. She got insurance after that for a few dollars a month. It is not theory, 923. People cooperating with one another to make a profit will deliver the best health care available to the most people at the lowest possible cost.

Except, you know, they actually don't in the real world. But you believe what you want to believe. Markets are amazing things, but not all markets are the same, not all markets are efficient, highly inefficient markets lead to monopoly and returns accruing to suppliers rather than driving prices down, and some goods and services do not react to market forces in a way that maximizes utility. The fact that you tried to compare iPhones to heart surgery is clear evidence that you either don't understand these facts, or are ideologically blinded to them.
 
$2,368, and that was staying in the hospital for five days. ThinkWithYourDick what a savings that would be today.

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1151669

We examined a total of 19 368 adult patients hospitalized with appendicitis. The median hospital charge among all patients was $33 611, with a lowest observed charge of $1529 and highest of $182 955.

The Table provides results of the hierarchical model for percentage increase in median charge for various patient and hospital factors. When analyzing patient factors, increasing ages were associated with increased median charge. There were slightly increased charges for Medicaid patients (2.3%; 95% CI, 1.3%-3.4%) and the uninsured (1.4%; 95% CI, 0.4%-2.5%). When considering hospital-level factors, the estimated median charge for appendicitis from a county hospital was 36.6% lower (95% CI, 22.5%-48.2%) than from nonprofit hospitals, and for-profit hospitals had 16.3% higher charges (95% CI, 5.4%-28.4%).

Observations: it is possible to get an appendectomy today for less than your relative paid in constant dollars, and publicly-run hospitals provide appendectomies for substantially less than "nonprofit" hospitals or for-profit hospitals.

What was your argument again?
 
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1151669



Observations: it is possible to get an appendectomy today for less than your relative paid in constant dollars, and publicly-run hospitals provide appendectomies for substantially less than "nonprofit" hospitals or for-profit hospitals.

What was your argument again?

Come on, 923. My relative was not at the lowest cost hospital in 1962 America and you can't get an appendectomy for $1529 today. The median cost today is close to reality. County hospitals are cheaper and worse places to be, in general. Government pays for most health care at "for-profit" hospitals.
 
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