About that "World's Best Healthcare System" the U.S. is supposed to have...

uh, what?

Demonbeck said:

Part of the reason American healthcare is so expensive is because we are paying for the R&D for the next breakthrough. Socialized medicine in other countries won't pay for it, so we do.

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I disagree, but I'd like to hear your rationale for this concept.

Demonbeck said:

Part of the reason American healthcare is so expensive is because we are paying for the R&D for the next breakthrough. Socialized medicine in other countries won't pay for it, so we do.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Research_Council_(United_Kingdom)

Important work carried out under MRC auspices has included:

the identification of the dietary cause of rickets by Sir Edward Mellanby;[4]
the discovery, in 1918, that influenza is caused by a virus;[5]
the description of neurotransmission and the first neurotransmitter, acetylcholine, by Sir Henry Hallett Dale and Otto Loewi, leading to a Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine in 1936;
the development of penicillin by Sir Alexander Fleming, Sir Ernst Boris Chain and Lord Florey, gaining them the 1945 Nobel Prize;[6]
linkage of lung cancer to tobacco smoking by Sir Richard Doll and Sir Austin Bradford Hill in the British doctors study, published in 1956;[7]
the discovery of the structure of DNA by James D. Watson, Francis Crick, Rosalind Franklin and Professor Maurice Wilkins.[8] Three would receive the 1962 Nobel Prize for Physiology and Medicine for their discovery;
the development of magnetic resonance imaging in 1973 by Professor Peter Mansfield and independently by Paul Lauterbur. This would lead to the 2003 Nobel Prize;[9]
the development of monoclonal antibodies[10] by César Milstein and Georges Köhler in 1975 (1984 Nobel Prize);
the identification, in 1983, of folic acid as a preventive measure for spina bifida and neural tube defects;[11]
the conducting of large studies in the 1970s and 1980s which established that aspirin can decrease the risk of cardiovascular disease;
the publication of the genome of C. elegans, the first multicellular organism to receive this treatment, in 1998;
the ongoing Heart Protection Study,[12] showing benefits of primary prevention with simvastatin in patients at high risk for cardiovascular disease;
Dr Venki Ramakrishnan of the MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology winning the Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 2009[13] for showing how ribosomes, the tiny protein-making factories inside cells, function at the atomic level;
the discovery that early treatment of HIV-infected babies with anti-retroviral therapy can dramatically increase their chances of survival;
the development of a test for detecting infectious prions on surgical instruments which is more accurate than previous tests and 100 times faster;
the identification of the second ever genetic variant associated with obesity;[14] and
the finding that high quality surgery combined with a short course of radiotherapy can halve the rate of recurrence of colorectal cancer.[15]

TownieDeac said:

They are completely separate parts of the budget.

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This. R&D costs borne by the gov't/Pharma don't have the type of substantial impact on healthcare costs that Demonbeck thinks happens. Cost of prescription drugs? Sure but that is a different issue.

Besides that, Europe and Canada account for ~33% of global medical research funding (both public and private). Add in Japan and Australia and you are pushing even closer to 40%. Not the same as the US which is closer to 45% (an even bigger gap emerges on a per capita basis) but also not something I would characterize as "socialized medicine in other countries won't pay for it, so we do".

Demonbeck said:

Part of the reason American healthcare is so expensive is because we are paying for the R&D for the next breakthrough. Socialized medicine in other countries won't pay for it, so we do.

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My response to this argument (other than the fact that it is not really true, and to the extent it is true, is wildly oversimplified) is the same as my response when someone says we have to pay for largest military on the planet because no one else will keep the peace: I didn't get a vote when the rest of the globe decided to pick my pocket for drugs and military protection, and I suggest we stop subsidizing everyone else. I'm confident the rest of the globe (esp. Europe) will dig a little deeper and fill in the gap.

F'ing Canada and their socialized medicine...

OK, I am convinced. Our health care system sucks and we need to go to a socialized system.

The benefits aren't substantial or consistent and they no way justify the outrageous costs we are paying.

This article really calls into question even the idea that America is so great at treating cancer.

http://www.vox.com/2014/6/24/5837832/is-america-better-than-europe-at-treating-cancer

Apparently we are really good at detecting cancer, which in turn has a large statistical impact on things like 5-year survival rates (after all the earlier it's detected, the better chances you have of living 5 years, even if it kills you after 6 years). But our cancer mortality rates are not much different than peer nations. Most of the positive change has come from reducing smoking, which we actually have done a better job of than the Euros.

america: even our cancer kicks ass

Ain't no money in the cure. That's why we just find it and let the money flo in.

Gotta post this:

A moment of silence for Jonas Salk, who GAVE AWAY the polio vaccine he developed. That could/would not happen today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Salk

When news of the vaccine's success was made public on April 12, 1955, Salk was hailed as a "miracle worker," and the day "almost became a national holiday." His sole focus had been to develop a safe and effective vaccine as rapidly as possible, with no interest in personal profit. When he was asked in a televised interview who owned the patent to the vaccine, Salk replied: "There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?"

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Today you would get a drug to take your entire life to help you live with the symptoms of polio.

TownieDeac said:

These are nice generalizations, and certainly there's a layer of truth there, but there are cures literally rolled out every day.

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About that...

bobknightfan said:

Chris has it figured out....and it's not rocket science. As he said, the money is in the medicine they can sell...not in providing cures, or even healthcare itself. That's what healthcare in this country is all about.....money & profits, and how they can get more of your money and make more profits for themselves.

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That's insulting to the people who have devoted their lives to research in the medical fields.

bobknightfan said:

The truth is never insulting.....and the people doing the research are not the problem.

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just the fact that they get paid

Making a joke, bro.

bobknightfan said:

Chris has it figured out....and it's not rocket science. As he said, the money is in the medicine they can sell...not in providing cures, or even healthcare itself. That's what healthcare in this country is all about.....money & profits, and how they can get more of your money and make more profits for themselves.

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Do you tell your doctor this?

CHDeac said:

Do you tell your doctor this?

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Nope, I let pharmaceutical reps do it for me.

awaken said:

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Its things like this ,even as a joke, that distort what tons of people devote their lives to. Also its ridiculous to think that if someone found a legitimate cure or vaccine to something they would buried it in hopes of continuing to receive research money for the problem they just "cured". The notoriety, money, etc.. that would come from say an HIV vaccine would be astronomical. I have met plenty of scientific nobel prize winners and their lives within the research world are that of rock stars. I asked one guy how often he commits to giving talks, he said that his secretary receives about 3 to 4 talk requests a day and that when he first received his noble prize he was trying to honor as many as he could. Now he has cut it down to 2 to 3 a month.