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SCOTUS decisions

Good take by Junebug, the problem is there needs to be more pushback against the conservatives that believe only Christianity should be applied and unfortunately that’s the conservative base.
 
Thank you, Junebug

I was under the false impression the Chaplain was in the employ of the State Correctional facilities of Alabama and that the prison’s issue was a non-employee going into the execution chamber (liability).

I recognize that the reports state that Ray spent much of his last few days with the Imam..but
after reading Kagan’s dissent I agree with her. He should have been allowed to have his Imam present in the chamber.

The “timing” of his appeal notwithstanding. He was notified on the 23rd and appealed within 5 days on the 28th.
 
Junebug said:
I could not agree more. One of the purposes of the religion clauses was to safeguard minority religious belief and practices. Majority religious views are de facto protected because legislators, who are often members of majority religions themselves, aren’t going to enact laws that burden their own religious belief and practice. It’s not often that a legislative body sets out to discriminate against a minority religion, but it is very common that, by inadvertence due to unfamiliarity with minority religious practice, laws get passed that end up having an incidental burden on minority’s religious practice. We need a strong free exercise clause to deal with this problem, and this is where I think Scalia went wrong.

To your point, I do think that, to a degree, Christianity is under attack in our culture. The contempt with which certain posters treat religion on this board is evidence of that. Be that as it may, Christians need to do a better job of recognizing that the attack isn’t just against Christianity. It’s against religion, writ large, and Christianity is just one, if the largest, target. In that respect, Christians are brothers and sisters with Jews, Muslims, Unitarians, members of the Church of the Lukumi, etc., etc., and fighting for their rights benefits us all. We are not a Christian nation, but our founding documents do recognize the importance of religion in the lives of its citizens, whatever that religion may be.
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I’d argue that Christianity is under attack mostly from within. The current leadership of American Christianity is breeding and inviting that contempt. When you have the most prominent voices of American Christianity propping up a guy like Trump as a Christian president let alone “the most Christian” or “first Christian” President, you are going to get contempt. Were the church more like the NT church, it would be pretty appealing to millennials. Instead it’s another old institution where OWGs are shamelessly clinging to power.
 
Junebug, it seems like the contempt for Christians you describe in the second paragraph is simply the backlash to the first paragraph.

I know plenty of folks on the left who have contempt for conservative “Christian” politics (which is almost completely a white evangelical thing) but they have no contempt for individually held religious beliefs that do not attempt to infringe on anyone’s rights.
 
PhDeac said:
Junebug, it seems like the contempt for Christians you describe in the second paragraph is simply the backlash to the first paragraph.

I know plenty of folks on the left who have contempt for conservative “Christian” politics (which is almost completely a white evangelical thing) but they have no contempt for individually held religious beliefs that do not attempt to infringe on anyone’s rights.
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Me
 
Deacfreak07 said:
I’d argue that Christianity is under attack mostly from within. The current leadership of American Christianity is breeding and inviting that contempt. When you have the most prominent voices of American Christianity propping up a guy like Trump as a Christian president let alone “the most Christian” or “first Christian” President, you are going to get contempt. Were the church more like the NT church, it would be pretty appealing to millennials. Instead it’s another old institution where OWGs are shamelessly clinging to power.
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Good post. Fundamentalist Christianity was mostly a minority voice within American religion until the 1970s. Mainline Protestants were usually the dominant group, and they tended to be more moderate and less-militant than fundamentalists. The decline of Mainline Protestant churches starting the 60s, and the subsequent rise of groups like the Moral Majority, con artist televangelists/quacks like Jim Bakker and Pat Robertson, and the Religious Right's lock-step allegiance to ever more conservative and controversial GOP politicians has caused (and still is causing) serious harm to American Christianity. When your most prominent religious leaders are Trumpites like Jerry Falwell, Jr. and Franklin Graham, your religion is in trouble, and won't be very appealing to anyone outside a rather narrow base.
 
Junebug said:
My first paragraph argues that legislators often unconsciously enact laws that burden religious minority exercise because they aren't familiar with minority religious practice. I don't think that is the source of contempt for Christians in today's society.

As for your claim that conservative Christian politics are the source of the contempt for Christianity in today's society, I don't disagree that this is "a" source. I think that the bigger culprit, however, is the gradual turn of American society's religious views away from Christianity toward atheism/agnosticism, and the lack of respect for religious belief and practice that can come with that. If my premise is that Christian legislators are going to be less accommodating toward minority religious views because of unfamiliarity, then it is not a far leap to suggest that atheistic/agnostic legislators are going to be less accommodating toward all religious views because of unfamiliarity and, in some cases, outright hostility.

Christians ought to be sensitive to the rights of the adherents of minority religions because those are rights guaranteed by the constitution. More practically, Christians should want good religion clause doctrine because it is not crazy to think that, one day, Christians may be part of the minority.
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The turn to evangelism and the prosperity gospel from a number of Christians contributes more to the contempt for Christianity than any turn to agnosticism/atheism. I mean there's simply no way to square fiscal conservatism with the biblical views of Jesus but the biggest conservatives I know are also balls deep in Christianity.

And yeah I wonder what it's like to not have legislators who reflect your religious (or lack thereof) beliefs. Reminder that even though 10-20% of Americans (based on study/poll) identify as nontheistic, there are - what - two Congressmen who identify as nontheistic? That's wild. And will clearly change but it's still wild.

The protection of Christian interests over other religious and non-religious interests doesn't require any great dissection IMO - most legislators (disproportionately so) are Christians and Christians receive favored status. Not surprising or hard to parse.
 
Highland Deac said:
Good post. Fundamentalist Christianity was mostly a minority voice within American religion until the 1970s. Mainline Protestants were usually the dominant group, and they tended to be more moderate and less-militant than fundamentalists. The decline of Mainline Protestant churches starting the 60s, and the subsequent rise of groups like the Moral Majority, con artist televangelists/quacks like Jim Bakker and Pat Robertson, and the Religious Right's lock-step allegiance to ever more conservative and controversial GOP politicians has caused (and still is causing) serious harm to American Christianity. When your most prominent religious leaders are Trumpites like Jerry Falwell, Jr. and Franklin Graham, your religion is in trouble, and won't be very appealing to anyone outside a rather narrow base.
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Highland Deac again.
 
I don’t know many atheists or agnostics who have a contempt for anybody else’s Christian beliefs as long as they aren’t forcing their beliefs on others. Most don’t even think much about Christianity aside from its political impact on their lives. Jesus died on the cross so you don’t have to yet so many white Christians believe they are being persecuted by other people just trying to have equal rights and live their lives.

It sad how many white Christians delude themselves into think they’re under attack by liberals. The liberal position on religion is on bumper stickers all of the country. COEXIST. It’s straightforward.
 
PhDeac said:
I don’t know many atheists or agnostics who have a contempt for anybody else’s Christian beliefs as long as they aren’t forcing their beliefs on others. Most don’t even think much about Christianity aside from its political impact on their lives. Jesus died on the cross so you don’t have to yet so many white Christians believe they are being persecuted by other people just trying to have equal rights and live their lives.

It sad how many white Christians delude themselves into think they’re under attack by liberals. The liberal position on religion is on bumper stickers all of the country. COEXIST. It’s straightforward.
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Let’s make no mistake about it, this is largely a discussion of white folks and religion anyway.

Those same bumper stickers are ridiculed by folks claiming to represent Christianity. Take that graphic to a MAGA rally and see how it turns out.

Junebug, people don’t typically walk away from authentic community. The church by and large has walked away from it.

Full disclosure, I majored in Religion at Wake with every intention of going to Divinity School, but I couldn’t square the fact that to teach the Gospel as I knew it and be employed in Baptist churches in the South for very long. If I couldn’t be authentic within the tradition that taught me about a radical Jesus, then I wanted no part.

I don’t attend church now. I work for a loosely Christian non profit, but I don’t hold contempt for Christianity. I hold contempt for its hypocritical leadership.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
The turn to evangelism and the prosperity gospel from a number of Christians contributes more to the contempt for Christianity than any turn to agnosticism/atheism. I mean there's simply no way to square fiscal conservatism with the biblical views of Jesus but the biggest conservatives I know are also balls deep in Christianity.

And yeah I wonder what it's like to not have legislators who reflect your religious (or lack thereof) beliefs. Reminder that even though 10-20% of Americans (based on study/poll) identify as nontheistic, there are - what - two Congressmen who identify as nontheistic? That's wild. And will clearly change but it's still wild.

The protection of Christian interests over other religious and non-religious interests doesn't require any great dissection IMO - most legislators (disproportionately so) are Christians and Christians receive favored status. Not surprising or hard to parse.
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I think you’re not wrong with the prosperity gospel bullshit. Wealth became a symbol of morality, and I truly believe that was and is the door by which Trump entered the sanctuaries of American churches. He’s “rich” and therefore blessed by God.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
I think you’re not wrong with the prosperity gospel bullshit. Wealth became a symbol of morality, and I truly believe that was and is the door by which Trump entered the sanctuaries of American churches. He’s “rich” and therefore blessed by God.
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This is spot on. I knew, and still know, too many Evangelicals and fundamentalists who genuinely seem to equate their prosperous lifestyle with being favored by God. They don't phrase it quite that way, of course, but they definitely give off the vibe that they privately believe it. They see no contradiction between the teachings of Jesus and their own beliefs and lifestyle, and they also give off the vibe that poor people just need to pray harder and go to the "right church" and things will improve for them. They may not be open believers or preachers of the prosperity gospel, but in their lives they certainly seem to agree with it.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
I think you’re not wrong with the prosperity gospel bullshit. Wealth became a symbol of morality, and I truly believe that was and is the door by which Trump entered the sanctuaries of American churches. He’s “rich” and therefore blessed by God.
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I think the main purpose of prosperity gospel was to justify largess in the pulpit likely from corruption. It also helped seal the link between conservative economic policy and social policy.
 
PhDeac said:
I think the main purpose of prosperity gospel was to justify largess in the pulpit likely from corruption. It also helped seal the link between conservative economic policy and social policy.
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Not necessarily in that order. Christian consumerism is definitely a thing. Cats have been making cheddar slinging the good book since the invention of the printing press.
 
Very true. Christian consumerism has been around since the beginning even though it’s the one thing Jesus got pissed about.
 
Junebug said:
Why didn’t you switch denominations?

I also majored in Religion (and Biology). I never wanted to be a minister, though; I wanted to be a professor. I was headed to a PhD program when I decided that the job market in my area of interest was just too competitive and I wanted to have more control over where I lived.
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The bolded is a weird question
 
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