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SCOTUS decisions

Wakeforest22890 said:
It places strong reliance on good faith actors who understand and embrace existing institutions. Honestly it’s surprising it has taken this long to find a collective bunch of selfish assholes to unravel the whole system.
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The founding fathers weren’t good faith actors. Most of them were selfish assholes.
 
PhDeac said:
It’s almost as if our system of government was constructed by politicians in order to keep themselves in power.
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I don’t think the system that was initially enacted imagined career politicians like we have today. You would have to leave your family and your job and travel by horseback to DC. There weren’t corporate lobbyists lining up to buy your influence. It was a huge sacrifice.
 
In what capacity were the founders power hungry? I’ll concede that Marbury v. Madison was a power grab but one that likely balanced the scale as far as equalizing powers of the three branches goes. Washington stepped down from the presidency willingly bringing about the most significant peaceful transition of power in western civilization and the deliberative process used to hone the constitution showed a willingness to work together for the common good even if the driving force was individual interest.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
The founding fathers weren’t good faith actors. Most of them were selfish assholes.
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Not to mention they were white, male, and some even owned slaves.

If only the Brits had cancelled those fuckers, we would be in a much better place as a country.
 
Only DF07 and his select approved political leaders have the moral fiber to lead us.
 
I prefer free range founding fathers.

It’s really not helpful to lift these dudes up like they were somehow superhuman. They were just as flawed as all the other assholes that came before them.

You really suggesting that Jefferson wasn’t power hungry? Hamilton? Adams? I’ll spot you Washington, but he knew slave ownership was wrong. He wrestled with that in his writing for his whole life. It’s really impossible to give him a pass because “those were different times”. Washington owned people because he wanted to build wealth. That’s a pretty big character flaw.
 
there's difference between acknowledging that the guys running things were probably extremely interested in continuing running things

i don't think anyone here believes they were all reluctant Philosopher Kings

but calling them selfish assholes is a weird tack
 
Deacfreak07 said:
I prefer free range founding fathers.

It’s really not helpful to lift these dudes up like they were somehow superhuman. They were just as flawed as all the other assholes that came before them.

You really suggesting that Jefferson wasn’t power hungry? Hamilton? Adams? I’ll spot you Washington, but he knew slave ownership was wrong. He wrestled with that in his writing for his whole life. It’s really impossible to give him a pass because “those were different times”. Washington owned people because he wanted to build wealth. That’s a pretty big character flaw.
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I agree that we shouldn't put them on the pedestal that plenty of people like to do, but I also believe there's an existing distinction between "were they power hungry" and "did this power hungriness cause the flawed constitutional system that currently exists"
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I agree that we shouldn't put them on the pedestal that plenty of people like to do, but I also believe there's an existing distinction between "were they power hungry" and "did this power hungriness cause the flawed constitutional system that currently exists"
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A large part of the system was designed to keep people like them in power. It’s not like there weren’t women or people of color suggesting a better way forward. Did they mean to specifically keep just themselves in power? Maybe, maybe not, but we can accurately assess that the system was designed to protect access to power.
 
Well they kowtowed to the Southern states and we still haven’t recovered from that as a nation.
 
The greater damage to the nation, imo, came not so much from the Founders compromising with Southern slaveowner demands in the Constitution, but from the North backing off during Reconstruction after the Civil War and allowing the South to essentially write the narrative of the war, and allowing Southern states to pass Jim Crow laws and effectively return Southern blacks to a state of near-slavery for decades. The North had won the war, the white South was on its knees, and yet the North eventually gave up trying to protect the rights of Southern blacks by 1877.

The narrative of the Civil War that was used in history textbooks for decades, even outside the South, downplayed the role of slavery in causing the war, depicted slaves as being generally happy and content with their condition and well-treated by Southern slaveowners, and often depicted the Confederates as heroic underdogs who were just overwhelmed by Union might (virtually no mention was given to the tens of thousands of black soldiers who served in the Union Army during the war, or to the elected black Southern politicians after the war), and men like Robert E. Lee were depicted as anti-slavery and anti-secession, even though they somehow managed to fight fiercely for four years for both slavery and secession. That narrative of the heroic underdog white South resisting the overbearing, overwhelming power of the US Government (basically the Galactic Empire), persists among many whites to this day. The actual causes of the war, how slaves really felt about their condition, the real motivations of men like Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson (as opposed to the myths), and so on, is just foreign to these people. The South lost the war, but won Reconstruction and setting the narrative of slavery and what caused the conflict, the role of blacks during and after the war, and so on, and that victory continues to haunt the nation to this day.
 
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Highland Deac said:
The greater damage to the nation, imo, came not so much from the Founders compromising with Southern slaveowner demands in the Constitution, but from the North backing off during Reconstruction after the Civil War and allowing the South to essentially write the narrative of the war, and allowing Southern states to pass Jim Crow laws and effectively return Southern blacks to a state of near-slavery for decades. The North had won the war, the white South was on its knees, and yet the North eventually gave up trying to protect the rights of Southern blacks by 1877.

The narrative of the Civil War that was used in history textbooks for decades, even outside the South, downplayed the role of slavery in causing the war, depicted slaves as being generally happy and content with their condition and well-treated by Southern slaveowners, and often depicted the Confederates as heroic underdogs who were just overwhelmed by Union might (virtually no mention was given to the tens of thousands of black soldiers who served in the Union Army during the war, or to the elected black Southern politicians after the war), and men like Robert E. Lee were depicted as anti-slavery and anti-secession, even though they somehow managed to fight fiercely for four years for both slavery and secession. That narrative of the heroic underdog white South resisting the overbearing, overwhelming power of the US Government (basically the Galactic Empire), persists among many whites to this day. The actual causes of the war, how slaves really felt about their condition, the real motivations of men like Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson (as opposed to the myths), and so on, is just foreign to these people. The South lost the war, but won Reconstruction and setting the narrative of slavery and what caused the conflict, the role of blacks during and after the war, and so on, and that victory continues to haunt the nation to this day.
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Good post.
 
Yep

Thusly the south is largely run by politicians prattling on agin’ tha fedrul gub’mint. Them elites from yonder a’tryin’ ta tell us’n whut ta do an’ how ta live.

White southerners outside of larger urban areas (and significantly within) are culturally primed towards ignorance, racism, and politically hitting themselves in the nuts. All while consciously holding dear some ideals of virtue and good intention.
 
Also much of the narrative about the North is simplified to being anti-slavery without understanding why. Looking at it from a modern lens, we assume they valued equality. The true is many in the North just thought it was an abhorrent practice but had no desire to spend political capital making freed slaves full citizens with the same rights they had. The North was split between people whose attitudes toward blacks were akin to PETA thinking slavery was a horrible way to treat beings who were less than human, people who thought blacks were human but lesser social beings, and people who actually fought for equality.
 
 
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I mean the whole thing is ludicrous. Even if you accept that federal charges must be delayed, you have pending state charges that you must sit on since those too can’t be charged while in office. Then if you we’re somewhat corrupt before you would go full dictator corruption to remain in office as long as possible because as soon as you are out you are fucked. It’s just insane, and somewhat what’s occurring right now just nothing as extreme as murder.
 
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