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SCOTUS decisions

With the narrow margin, each Republican Senator has an unbelievable amount of power right now and I have zero faith any of them will do anything with it.
 
avalon said:
With the narrow margin, each Republican Senator has an unbelievable amount of power right now and I have zero faith any of them will do anything with it.
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This. Dowd and Scarborough are right in their suggestions, but to date no GOP members of Congress have shown any guts to consistently challenge Trump, or his control of the party. McCain did on the healthcare fight, but he's now out of the action, and my guess is he'd vote for a right-wing SC nominee enthusiastically. Flake and Corker have criticized him on his tweets and crass behavior from time to time, but they've voted in favor of almost everything he's proposed in Congress, and their response to Trump's control of the party has been to retire rather than fight. Collins and Murkowski have mildly criticized Trump from time to time, but in the end have voted his way on nearly every issue. At this point I would be very, very surprised if, when push comes to shove, a single GOP Senator is willing to vote against whomever Trump nominates. A few may give some lip service criticism on a few things, but in the end they'll all fold and fall in line, like they've done so many times before.
 
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PhDeac said:
Wrangor, I’m not sure if I’ve asked you this before but what’s your hope for what would happen if Roe is overturned. I’m guessing you’d be fine leaving it up to the states or do you think the conservative court could find a way to ban abortion outright?

What punishments would you want to see for women who have illegal abortions?

Should there be an increase in entitlements for all the additional children being born in the US?

The end of abortion is possible so I’m curious what the anti-choice crowd has in mind for enforcing the new laws.
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I consider abortion to be at best voluntary manslaughter, at worst straight up
Murder. Obviously right now it is legal, so even in the event that abortion is seen as I see it, you would have to give time for culture to adjust. And when I discuss abortion I am speaking of the 90-95% of abortions that are simply due to choice or inconvenience. There is some Gray area When considering the abortions that are the result of a risk to the life of the mother, and other unorthodox and rare circumstances.

You raise a fair point. But the difficulty of the task shouldn’t dissuade a culture from doing what is right (obviously I see right/wrong different than many of you on this issue). My point is that many people used ‘it’s going to be too difficult’ mantra to try to delay civil rights but obviously the difficulty of that task should have zero bearing on the choice. It’s merely what is right and what is wrong. You figure it out as you go and make a lot of mistakes along they way.

So I see abortion as a great evil. The only thing that separates a child in the womb from a child in a mothers arms is a matter of months. All the genetic code is there. So of the top of my head I would start by going after all the abortion clinics and not the women attempting abortions. It will take some time for our culture to accept the new reality and the best way to limit abortions will be to punish those that give them. Over time you will also have to implement penalties on the women attempting to destroy their child in the womb. We have had abortion for so long it would be a long road. Again - they difficulty of the road is inconsequential to whether it should be done.
The civil unrest and complications would be enormous. We have lived under the lie for far too long that a separate living human being is somehow disposable simply because he or she has no voice.

For all the hatred I have towards Trump, if his justices put even a large dent in roe v. Wade, I will be forced to replace a tiny piece of spite with gratitude for the saved children.
 
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Highland Deac said:
This. Dowd and Scarborough are right in their suggestions, but to date no GOP members of Congress have shown any guts to consistently challenge Trump, or his control of the party. McCain did on the healthcare fight, but he's now out of the action, and my guess is he'd vote for a right-wing SC nominee enthusiastically. Flake and Corker have criticized him on his tweets and crass behavior from time to time, but they've voted in favor of almost everything he's proposed in Congress, and their response to Trump's control of the party has been to retire rather than fight. Collins and Murkowski have mildly criticized Trump from time to time, but in the end have voted his way on nearly every issue. At this point I would be very, very surprised if, when push comes to shove, a single GOP Senator is willing to vote against whomever Trump nominates. A few may give some lip service criticism on a few things, but in the end they'll all fold and fall in line, like they've done so many times before.
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Unfortunately I agree with this. I am not holding my breath waiting for one of these moderate Republicans to actually show some courage.

That being said - I encourage anyone living in these Senators' states who oppose Trumpism (especially Republicans and Independents and centrist dems) to get off social media...and call, write and visit to make your voice heard. I can tell you from experience it makes a difference. Just be respectful, genuine and remember these people work for you.

I don't know what the left does during Congressional showdowns like this but I know for a fact that conservative groups like the NRA, Focus on the Family, Trump's PAC and the RNC will be spending millions of dollars on tv, mail and phone banks in an effort to drive constituent calls to these swing senators offices.

I have no doubt Flake, Corker, Collins, McCain, Sasse and Murkowski are thinking really hard about what their vote will mean for the future of the republic. I would also add in Manchin, Donelly and Heitkamp to this list of swing votes.

Tailor your message to what you think will resonate the most with your Senator (Migrant intern camps, Mueller investigation, constitutional norms, reproductive rights, basic deceny).

Finally...call, write and visit repeatedly. You will almost always talk to a staffer but your contact will be logged and the stronger/more legitimate you sound, the greater the impact.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
 
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Wrangor will force a woman against her will to carry a child to term and then continue to vote a party that abandons the child as soon as it is born and continues to treat women and minorities like lesser humans and denies them equal rights, all while having the gall to compare it to the civil rights struggle. Now that's what I call evil.
 
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Looks like it. You noticed just as I did that he didn’t answer the rest of my questions.

If these women who get abortions are as horrible as Wrangor thinks they are, we could see newborns showing up in trash cans and doorsteps all over the US.

How will Wrangor’s America deal with thousands of abandoned children? Republicans already demonize single women who choose not to have an abortion. Will they stop once women are forced to carry children to term?
 
Shooshmoo said:
Wrangor will force a woman against her will to carry a child to term and then continue to vote a party that abandons the child as soon as it is born and continues to treat women and minorities like lesser humans and denies them equal rights, all while having the call to compare it to the civil rights struggle. Now that's what I call evil.
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You planted a field of straw men! Impressive effort. Sometimes I unhide your posts just to see if you are a less terrible poster. Keep doing you Shoo. You managed to turn protecting children into something evil. 🤦🏽‍♂️. For the record I am for protecting children at all ages, for nurturing them as they grow, for educating them so they can thrive. I treat people of all backgrounds with the equal respect of humanity that is not earned but God given. Peace and love to you my brother.
 
PhDeac said:
Looks like it. You noticed just as I did that he didn’t answer the rest of my questions.

If these women who get abortions are as horrible as Wrangor thinks they are, we could see newborns showing up in trash cans and doorsteps all over the US.

How will Wrangor’s America deal with thousands of abandoned children? Republicans already demonize single women who choose not to have an abortion. Will they stop once women are forced to carry children to term?
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I don’t think the women are any more evil than you or me. I think the practice is evil and I think we are deceived as a culture. I don’t think Thomas Jefferson or George Washington were evil either. They were deceived and blinded to their error.

More than anything, the convincing argument of the Gospel of Jesus is that man is completely wretched (myself included). We are not good by nature and tend to do the worst thing imaginable all the time. Accepting that reality helps me stay humble because even in the face of horrid moral actions, I don’t have to have to look any farther than my own heart to see evil intent, selfishness, and expediency rather than virtue.

If it were up to me, I would hope that we could pour all the money that we currently pour into abortions, into foster and adoptive care. We could beef up our birth control and sex education. We could create programs to help young mothers cope and raise their children even if the child being conceived was unintentional.

What question didn’t I answer?. I honestly tried to answer your question.


Looked back and saw I missed the entitlement question. I would not be opposed to it. I would prefer to see money poured into preventing unwanted pregnancies, but I think it would be completely appropriate to also put money into making sure the children can eat.

In the end we have to do a. Enter job of teaching responsibility. It isn’t difficult to stay not pregnant. Of course it isn’t going to happen by accident at times but condoms are 99% effective. That’s a lot of percents for anyone that has the common sense to not want to have a baby.
 
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Wrangor said:
You planted a field of straw men! Impressive effort. Sometimes I unhide your posts just to see if you are a less terrible poster. Keep doing you Shoo. You managed to turn protecting children into something evil. 臘‍♂️. For the record I am for protecting children at all ages, for nurturing them as they grow, for educating them so they can thrive. I treat people of all backgrounds with the equal respect of humanity that is not earned but God given. Peace and love to you my brother.
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You missed the point, Wrangor, as usual. You are not nearly as smart as you fancy yourself to be. How you post this with a straight face as your party separates children from their parents is beyond me, but I am glad you in your personal life you don't do that. And your "treat people of all backgrounds with the equal respect of humanity that is not earned but God given" copout sounds exactly like something Pence would say as he takes some new action to deny equal rights to gay people, and rings just as hollow.
 
Shooshmoo said:
You missed the point, Wrangor, as usual. You are not nearly as smart as you fancy yourself to be. How you post this with a straight face as your party separates children from their parents is beyond me, but I am glad you in your personal life you don't do that. And your "treat people of all backgrounds with the equal respect of humanity that is not earned but God given" copout sounds exactly like something Pence would say as he takes some new action to deny equal rights to gay people, and rings just as hollow.
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I don’t identify as a Republican any more. Didn’t vote for one for president. Not planning on voting for one for my upcoming senate battle. I am conservative and I am generally disgusted with the Republican Party right now. I also have no place in the Democratic Party, in large part because people like you would rather try to drive me into the dirt than try to find middle ground.

And I have no misconceptions that I am a brilliant mind. I am just communicating my thoughts like the rest of the people here.

SWIIIIING AND A MISS!
 
Wrangor said:
I consider abortion to be at best voluntary manslaughter, at worst straight up
Murder. Obviously right now it is legal, so even in the event that abortion is seen as I see it, you would have to give time for culture to adjust. And when I discuss abortion I am speaking of the 90-95% of abortions that are simply due to choice or inconvenience. There is some Gray area When considering the abortions that are the result of a risk to the life of the mother, and other unorthodox and rare circumstances.

You raise a fair point. But the difficulty of the task shouldn’t dissuade a culture from doing what is right (obviously I see right/wrong different than many of you on this issue). My point is that many people used ‘it’s going to be too difficult’ mantra to try to delay civil rights but obviously the difficulty of that task should have zero bearing on the choice. It’s merely what is right and what is wrong. You figure it out as you go and make a lot of mistakes along they way.

So I see abortion as a great evil. The only thing that separates a child in the womb from a child in a mothers arms is a matter of months. All the genetic code is there. So of the top of my head I would start by going after all the abortion clinics and not the women attempting abortions. It will take some time for our culture to accept the new reality and the best way to limit abortions will be to punish those that give them. Over time you will also have to implement penalties on the women attempting to destroy their child in the womb. We have had abortion for so long it would be a long road. Again - they difficulty of the road is inconsequential to whether it should be done.
The civil unrest and complications would be enormous. We have lived under the lie for far too long that a separate living human being is somehow disposable simply because he or she has no voice.

For all the hatred I have towards Trump, if his justices put even a large dent in roe v. Wade, I will be forced to replace a tiny piece of spite with gratitude for the saved children.
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Great post from my anti-trump conservative brother. I get it and I fully respect your solid opinion but I disagree.

Up until a few years ago, I looked at abortion as murder as well. And I had a hard time with how we as a society could treat murder as such a grave sin yet tolerate and legalize abortion. If you believe murder is illegal, and abortion is murder then abortion should be illegal, right?

Although I still think abortion is abhorrent as a means of birth control, I personally think this issue is so deeply personal and spiritial/religious that the state should stay out of it. It's too much of a gray area for any human being to reasonably legislate a restriction on a parents' freedom to make a decision about what is best for themselves and the baby.

Under no circumstances do I think the state should favor the life of an unborn child over the life of a parent, nor do I believe that anyone who has been raped should have to carry the cross of an unwanted child through an act of horrifying violence.

It gets a little more difficult when it comes to matters of the baby's health and viability, financial or emotional ability to support the child.

But thats not for the state to decide. That's for you and your God to hash out when it's time.
 
Shooshmoo said:
Wrangor will force a woman against her will to carry a child to term and then continue to vote a party that abandons the child as soon as it is born and continues to treat women and minorities like lesser humans and denies them equal rights, all while having the call to compare it to the civil rights struggle. Now that's what I call evil.
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I've thought for years that I would take "pro-life" people more seriously when they started supporting social services, educational, and welfare programs to help a mother and her child after it is born, and to help single mothers raise their child. Instead, in my experience most "pro-life" people oppose any such programs, and are in favor of cutting, ending, or "privatizing" them. Their "pro-life" stance ends with the birth of the baby. Forcing an often young, single, and frightened mother to bring a baby into the world, and then supporting cutting off the safety and social net that would help her raise and take care of the baby in a positive and healthy way, strikes me as most hypocritical.
 
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Newenglanddeac said:
Great post from my anti-trump conservative brother. I get it and I fully respect your solid opinion but I disagree.

Up until a few years ago, I looked at abortion as murder as well. And I had a hard time with how we as a society could treat murder as such a grave sin yet tolerate and legalize abortion. If you believe murder is illegal, and abortion is murder then abortion should be illegal, right?

Although I still think abortion is abhorrent as a means of birth control, I personally think this issue is so deeply personal and spiritial/religious that the state should stay out of it. It's too much of a gray area for any human being to reasonably legislate a restriction on a parents' freedom to make a decision about what is best for themselves and the baby.

Under no circumstances do I think the state should favor the life of an unborn child over the life of a parent, nor do I believe that anyone who has been raped should have to carry the cross of an unwanted child through an act of horrifying violence.

It gets a little more difficult when it comes to matters of the baby's health and viability, financial or emotional ability to support the child.

But thats not for the state to decide. That's for you and your God to hash out when it's time.
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See Shoo. That’s how you do it. You disagree, but leave the dialogue open. When New England communicates i listen, because I know he is actually trying to grow, learn, and be challenged.

Appreciate the response. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind on abortion. I agree with you that it is a deeply personal issue, and disagree that the state should stay out of it. Headed to sleep. This whole appointment is going to be a circus (just like everything else Trump does ).
 
Newenglanddeac said:
Great post from my anti-trump conservative brother. I get it and I fully respect your solid opinion but I disagree.

Up until a few years ago, I looked at abortion as murder as well. And I had a hard time with how we as a society could treat murder as such a grave sin yet tolerate and legalize abortion. If you believe murder is illegal, and abortion is murder then abortion should be illegal, right?

Although I still think abortion is abhorrent as a means of birth control, I personally think this issue is so deeply personal and spiritial/religious that the state should stay out of it. It's too much of a gray area for any human being to reasonably legislate a restriction on a parents' freedom to make a decision about what is best for themselves and the baby.

Under no circumstances do I think the state should favor the life of an unborn child over the life of a parent, nor do I believe that anyone who has been raped should have to carry the cross of an unwanted child through an act of horrifying violence.

It gets a little more difficult when it comes to matters of the baby's health and viability, financial or emotional ability to support the child.

But thats not for the state to decide. That's for you and your God to hash out when it's time.
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I made the same spiritual and emotion journey. Ultimately I decided that I wouldn’t choose an abortion but it’s not my choice to make.

Politically, I realized if Republicans were honestly against abortion they would have more respect for single moms.
 
Wrangor said:
I don’t identify as a Republican any more. Didn’t vote for one for president. Not planning on voting for one for my upcoming senate battle. I am conservative and I am generally disgusted with the Republican Party right now. I also have no place in the Democratic Party, in large part because people like you would rather try to drive me into the dirt than try to find middle ground.

And I have no misconceptions that I am a brilliant mind. I am just communicating my thoughts like the rest of the people here.

SWIIIIING AND A MISS!
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I'm well past trying to find a middle ground with pro life people. There's no chance. Not worth the effort. But good to hear you are not voting at all, in any election anymore. Just completely not voting for anyone, in any election - not just the Presidential election. And you won't go back while the Republican party is like this. Kudos.
 
Shooshmoo said:
I'm well past trying to find a middle ground with pro life people. There's no chance. Not worth the effort. But good to hear you are not voting at all, in any election anymore. Just completely not voting for anyone, in any election - not just the Presidential election. And you won't go back while the Republican party is like this. Kudos.
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Wrangor is far more decent than most. You can’t get most anti-choice folks to support sex education. I think he at least understand how economic anxiety plays into the decision to have an abortion and how reducing that anxiety would lower abortion rates.
 
Wrangor said:
I don’t identify as a Republican any more. Didn’t vote for one for president. Not planning on voting for one for my upcoming senate battle. I am conservative and I am generally disgusted with the Republican Party right now. I also have no place in the Democratic Party, in large part because people like you would rather try to drive me into the dirt than try to find middle ground.

And I have no misconceptions that I am a brilliant mind. I am just communicating my thoughts like the rest of the people here.

SWIIIIING AND A MISS!
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There are many "pro-life" Dems who don't believe that their responsibility ends at birth. Sen. Casey from PA is a major one.

The problem I have with people calling themselves "pro-life" is most oppose most of the safety net to the children and families after they are born. The second one is, you can't be legitimately "pro-life" and pro-death penalty. That's a direct contraction. No excuses, no rationalizations are fair.

At least the Catholic Church is anti-abortion and anti-DP. They are "pro-life".
 
PhDeac said:
I made the same spiritual and emotion journey. Ultimately I decided that I wouldn’t choose an abortion but it’s not my choice to make.

Politically, I realized if Republicans were honestly against abortion they would have more respect for single moms.
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Yep that's a key word. Case in point:

 
Wealthy white guys will never have a problem getting abortions for their mistresses. This is a "law for thee and not for me."
 
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