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At least 172 Palestinians killed, 1,280 injured, UN says 77% are civilians

RJ, I respect your thoughts on this issue but sadly I think there is a lot of truth in this column by Gideon Levy for Haaretz.
Israel does not want peace
Rejectionism is embedded in Israel's most primal beliefs. There, at the deepest level, lies the concept that this land is destined for the Jews alone.
Israel does not want peace. There is nothing I have ever written that I would be happier to be proved wrong about. But the evidence is piling up. In fact, it can be said that Israel has never wanted peace – a just peace, that is, one based on a just compromise for both sides. It’s true that the routine greeting in Hebrew is Shalom (peace) – shalom when one leaves and shalom when one arrives. And, at the drop of a hat, almost every Israeli will say he wants peace, of course he does. But he’s not referring to the kind of peace that will bring about the justice without which there is no peace and there will be no peace. Israelis want peace, not justice, certainly not anything based on universal values.
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Israel has never, not for a minute, treated the Palestinians as human beings with equal rights. It has never viewed their distress as understandable human and national distress.
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The single most overwhelming item of evidence of Israel’s rejection of peace is, of course, the settlements project. From the dawn of its existence, there has never been a more reliable or more precise litmus test for Israel’s true intentions than this particular enterprise. In plain words: The builders of settlements want to consolidate the occupation, and those who want to consolidate the occupation do not want peace. That’s the whole story in a nutshell.
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If Israel had wanted to achieve peace at Taba, at Camp David, at Sharm el-Sheikh, in Washington or in Jerusalem, its first move should have been to end all construction in the territories. Unconditionally. Without a quid pro quo. The fact that Israel did not is proof that it did not want a just peace.
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at the deepest level, lies the concept that this land is destined for the Jews alone. There, at the deepest level, is entrenched the value of “am sgula” – God’s “treasured people” – and “God chose us.” In practice, this is translated to mean that, in this land, Jews are allowed to do what is forbidden to others. That is the point of departure, and there is no way to get from there to a just peace. There is no way to reach a just peace when the name of the game is the dehumanization of the Palestinians. No way to achieve peace when the demonization of the Palestinians is hammered into people’s heads day after day. Those who are convinced that every Palestinian is a suspicious person and that every Palestinian wants “to throw the Jews into the sea” will never make peace with the Palestinians. Most Israelis are convinced of the truth of both those statements.
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http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601112
 
bob what you do if every day your country was under attack? Would you hit back?

Israel started exactly one of the major wars in the region. They have been under siege since the 1940s. They would like nothing better than living in peace.

Without question, the settlements need to stop and be given back, but you have never given any blame to those who have started over a half a dozen wars. You don't give any blame to those who make millions of Israelis live in fear of missiles being fired on them every day.

They made a lasting and positive peace with Egypt. They have a solid, peaceful and respectful relationship with Jordan.

There could easily be a Palestinian state if Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah would allow it.
 
Maybe things aren't as bleak as the picture that column paints. Both sides have legitimate grievances, and Hamas is definitely an impediment to peace, but I think the average Palestinian has far more to be pissed about. Imagine if your grandparents had a house and a good life and they were kicked out and had everything they owned taken from them and they had to go live in a refugee camp. A lot of the Palestinians problems are self made no doubt but that does not mean they don't have legitimate grievances.
 
BobStackFan4Life said:
Imagine if your grandparents had a house and a good life and they were kicked out and had everything they owned taken from them and they had to go live in a refugee camp.
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Actually, I imagine many Jews who had relatives in Europe can identify with this. And yet there is this gigantic blind spot when it comes to what they turned around and did to the Palestinians. I'm not saying Israel is remotely as bad as the Nazis, but it has largely been built by shitting all over the Palestinians. As the saying goes, "No justice, no peace."
 
Before Israel attacks they drop leaflets in Arabic telling people to please move.

Bebe screwed things up by not stopping settlements. But the biggest problems are Hamas and the unwillingness of many Arabs to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.
 
RJKarl said:
bob what you do if every day your country was under attack? Would you hit back?

Israel started exactly one of the major wars in the region. They have been under siege since the 1940s. They would like nothing better than living in peace.

Without question, the settlements need to stop and be given back, but you have never given any blame to those who have started over a half a dozen wars. You don't give any blame to those who make millions of Israelis live in fear of missiles being fired on them every day.

They made a lasting and positive peace with Egypt. They have a solid, peaceful and respectful relationship with Jordan.

There could easily be a Palestinian state if Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah would allow it.
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Those people firing rockets into Israel are idiots no doubt. Thankfully the rockets almost never do any damage (not a single Israeli has been killed since this offensive started- though an Israeli child was injured today by one) while the collective punishment for the Palestinians has been extraordinary. But if the rockets stopped tomorrow I have no doubt Netanyahu would come up with any number of reasons to justify this attack in his mind.
 
RJKarl said:
Before Israel attacks they drop leaflets in Arabic telling people to please move.

Bebe screwed things up by not stopping settlements. But the biggest problems are Hamas and the unwillingness of many Arabs to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.
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Well, maybe you're right. I'm certain you're more well informed on the subject and history of Israel than me. But to me Israel looks pretty monstrous right now.
 
To some extent I think the rockets fired in/rockets shot down constant also indicates that although people are crazily shooting rockets into Israel, it's not as if both sides don't know that they're going to be shot down. It's just to keep the people fired up and create chaos. And it's certainly working.
 
RJKarl said:
The reason civilians are getting killed is because of cowards in Hamas putting their rocket batteries in schools, hospitals and apartment buildings. Before each trike, the Israeli military tell people in neighborhood to leave as a strike is coming.

Hamas bombs Israel almost every day. Without doing this, there wouldn't be Israeli strikes.

Hamas is shooting rockets into Israel. form two countries.

You've never answered what do you think we would do is Mexico, Canada or Cuba was bombing us every day for years?

Do you actually think the US military would go out of its way to civilians to leave before the strikes? Or do you think we'd do like we did to Iraq? To Hanoi? To Dresden and carpet bomb them?

The reality is if Hamas stopped bombing there would be no Israeli bombing. To me even batshit crazy Bebe (who as I've said before on this thread is an impediment to peace) has restraint in not wiping out sections of Gaza over the past fifteen years due to the constant bombing.
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No, the reason that innocent people are getting killed is that people are shooting projectiles into locations where innocent people are... This is what sucks about this conflict. Get off of politics for a second and see it as an occupying force murdering 172 people in retaliation for three people, and not caring how much collateral damage it takes to satiate the bloodlust. Like Ph said earlier:

PhDeac said:
#thingsamericanssay

What kind of assholes just kill women and children anyway? If your enemy is using human shields, find another way.
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As a Jew, this whole mess and my people's response to it just breaks my heart. 172 people. A majority of whom are innocent. Are dead.
 
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Wakeforest22890 said:
To some extent I think the rockets fired in/rockets shot down constant also indicates that although people are crazily shooting rockets into Israel, it's not as if both sides don't know that they're going to be shot down. It's just to keep the people fired up and create chaos. And it's certainly working.
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Hamas is using innocent men, women and children and their deaths to make a statements. All this blood is on their hands. Their people kidnapped and killed three innocent teenagers. Their people send rockets into Israel every day.

#s you still haven't answered my question- What do you think the US would do if Canada, Mexico or Cuba lobbed missiles into the US every day?
 
RJKarl said:
Hamas is using innocent men, women and children and their deaths to make a statements. All this blood is on their hands. Their people kidnapped and killed three innocent teenagers. Their people send rockets into Israel every day.

#s you still haven't answered my question- What do you think the US would do if Canada, Mexico or Cuba lobbed missiles into the US every day?
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We would absolutely put boots on the ground.
 
i can understand if jewish people feel they need their own state for their protection.

I just don't understand why it's got to include fucking jerusalem. actually i do understand why...and it's stupid.

there have been exceptions, but traditionally Muslims have respected the right to worship for xtians and jews ("people of the book"). i suspect ultimately they'd do it again.

Prior to the creation of israel you could go prey there unmolested. lotta animosity since then (that the U.S. and Jews created mainly), but after a generation or two relations would be all good again.
 
Well if I understand correctly the original UN partition had most of Jerusalem as UN/International territory until the so called civil war in Palestine and ensuing war with Israel.

I don't understand Israel's 1980 unilateral annexation as being particularly within international allowance either but that's a red herring (somewhat) to the topic.

And yes of course we would go to war but that comparison is not necessarily apt given the respective histories of the comparing parties
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Well if I understand correctly the original UN partition had most of Jerusalem as UN/International territory until the so called civil war in Palestine and ensuing war with Israel.

I don't understand Israel's 1980 unilateral annexation as being particularly within international allowance either but that's a red herring (somewhat) to the topic.

And yes of course we would go to war but that comparison is not necessarily apt given the respective histories of the comparing parties
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This.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
We would absolutely put boots on the ground.
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What would the US do if Canada, Mexico, or Cuba had killed 172 Americans and injured 1280, 77% being civilians?

Lob missiles at them.

Well so much for that stupid argument.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Well if I understand correctly the original UN partition had most of Jerusalem as UN/International territory until the so called civil war in Palestine and ensuing war with Israel.

I don't understand Israel's 1980 unilateral annexation as being particularly within international allowance either but that's a red herring (somewhat) to the topic.

And yes of course we would go to war but that comparison is not necessarily apt given the respective histories of the comparing parties
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TX, NM, AZ, CA were all parts of Mexico until we stole them.
 
Every country has the right to defend itself. Any country that is being bombed has the right to take out the people who are bombing them. Sometimes this means the aggressor loses.

Israel has every right to wipe entire blocks of Gaza if that's where the missiles come from every. Every country does.
 
RJKarl said:
TX, NM, AZ, CA were all parts of Mexico until we stole them.
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The point was referring to DM's discussion about Jerusalem where he doesn't understand why it isn't international. I agree that it probably should be (three major religions claim portions of it as being integral to their faith) and was pointing out that the original intent of the UN appeared to be that it would be international. That is before the 1949 Armistice Agreements where Israel claimed a large portion of previously Palestinian land in addition to, I believe, annexing portions of East Jerusalem.
 
RJKarl said:
Every country has the right to defend itself. Any country that is being bombed has the right to take out the people who are bombing them. Sometimes this means the aggressor loses.

Israel has every right to wipe entire blocks of Gaza if that's where the missiles come from every. Every country does.
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And Palestinians believe that Israel is on their land and that they are defending it. You're predicating this all on your perception of what the borders look like.
 
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