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Thread: F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

  1. #20521
    I just watched those body cams... nope nope nope. Where was the threat? Did the suspect have a gun? Sure. Did he have the ability to shoot anyone? Not from his crotch. Was there jeopardy? He was probably more likely to shoot himself in the leg than anyone else.

    I was not there. I am just basing off of what I saw in several body cam videos but no other info.

  2. #20522
    Yea. Bottom line is the kid didn’t have to die. There were other means of justice in that scenario. Junebug still hasn’t answered how he’d feel if that were someone related to him, too.

  3. #20523
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    International edition:

    Women in Mexico City protest against alleged police rapes
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews...rapes-65025335

  4. #20524
    "Kids these days need to pull up their pants and look respectable. "

    "Kill him! He's reaching for his waistband! "

  5. #20525
    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    oh hell yeah!

    GOP Jesus: who cares about the least among us? They shouldn't have screwed up.

  6. #20526
    From Bernie's speech on criminal justice reform this weekend:


  7. #20527
    Ishmael Smith Junebug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDA View Post
    Also you didn’t answer the question about what if that was one of your relatives.
    It wouldn’t change my view.

    If I had a teenager, I would tell him not to carry a gun, not to bolt when a cop announces he wants to search him for a gun, and, for God’s sake, don’t reach for your waistband when a cop is chasing you for bolting after announcing he wants to search you for a gun.

    Given the stakes, we have to give cops leeway to make split second decisions based on their perception of the situation. Here, I think they reasonably perceived that he was reaching for his gun and that their lives were in imminent danger. That this kid was killed is really sad, but it was the most predictable outcome of his actions. If he had been thinking “how could this be perceived?” instead of “man, I’m really going to be in trouble if I get caught” he’d be alive today. There are thousands upon thousands of police-citizen interactions that don’t end this way.

  8. #20528
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    F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

    So you would tell your kid not to exercise his 2A rights?

    Why do cops get leeway to make split second decisions but ordinary citizens don’t?

  9. #20529
    Quote Originally Posted by DDA View Post
    I watched the video. That fucking sucks and he didn’t have to die. He reached for the waistband and quickly abandoned the effort in my view. And then when they cut his pants off you can see why. Just let the kid run, if he ditches the gun who cares they will get him and have prints on the gun. Instead some kid who made a bad decision is dead and gone but doesn’t have to be. Defending the quick trigger especially in the case of popping off 3 in the back is shitty.
    No need to die.

  10. #20530
    Ishmael Smith Junebug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDeac View Post
    So you would tell your kid not to exercise his 2A rights?

    Why do cops get leeway to make split second decisions but ordinary citizens don’t?
    There is no second amendment right to carry a gun in public, to bolt when accosted by police, or to reach for a gun in the chase.

    Cops get leeway because they are voluntarily performing a dangerous public service without which society would cease to function. These are matters of life and death, and, even with training, the human body is not a computer, able to perfectly process data despite the circumstances. Further, if we don’t give them leeway, but, instead throw them in jail anytime they shoot someone, who in their right mind would do the job? Leeway isn’t license to kill people on a whim, but it is an acknowledgement of the limits of human capacity and a recognition of the incentives and value of the task being performed.

  11. #20531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junebug View Post
    There is no second amendment right to carry a gun in public, to bolt when accosted by police, or to reach for a gun in the chase.

    Cops get leeway because they are voluntarily performing a dangerous public service without which society would cease to function. These are matters of life and death, and, even with training, the human body is not a computer, able to perfectly process data despite the circumstances. Further, if we don’t give them leeway, but, instead throw them in jail anytime they shoot someone, who in their right mind would do the job? Leeway isn’t license to kill people on a whim, but it is an acknowledgement of the limits of human capacity and a recognition of the incentives and value of the task being performed.
    I didn't realize you were against open carry.

    The bold is a pretty strong argument for no cops.

  12. #20532
    Quote Originally Posted by Junebug View Post
    It wouldn’t change my view.

    If I had a teenager, I would tell him not to carry a gun, not to bolt when a cop announces he wants to search him for a gun, and, for God’s sake, don’t reach for your waistband when a cop is chasing you for bolting after announcing he wants to search you for a gun.

    Given the stakes, we have to give cops leeway to make split second decisions based on their perception of the situation. Here, I think they reasonably perceived that he was reaching for his gun and that their lives were in imminent danger. That this kid was killed is really sad, but it was the most predictable outcome of his actions. If he had been thinking “how could this be perceived?” instead of “man, I’m really going to be in trouble if I get caught” he’d be alive today. There are thousands upon thousands of police-citizen interactions that don’t end this way.
    I call BS. If this was a loved one, I think you’d definitely be asking “surely the police could’ve done something else?” Again, let the kid run, do a dragnet like WnB suggested, pick him up later, etc. He didn’t have to get shot 3 times in the back running away, man.

  13. #20533
    Ishmael Smith Junebug's Avatar
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    I said there was no constitutional right to carry. That doesn’t mean I’m against it. Unlike liberals, conservatives don’t think the constitution enshrines all of their policy preferences.

    But you are right. I’m against it. I don’t want to live in the effing Wild West.

  14. #20534
    Police should be held to a higher standard. They are public servants and should be beacons of goodwill. Will they be perfect 100% of the time? Of course not. Can they make a bad decision? Sure. They are human. But that is exactly why you should not shoot in a situation like this. What if the kid had a knife instead of a gun? Is that justified? There is no way he could have stabbed someone while running away. He was wearing basketball shorts. He could have been puling his shorts up because his wallet and phone were dragging them down as he ran. In this case a gun was in his shorts but I never knew that until AFTER he was on the ground bleeding. Is hedging my bets on there being a gun worth killing someone?

  15. #20535
    Quote Originally Posted by DDA View Post
    I call BS. If this was a loved one, I think you’d definitely be asking “surely the police could’ve done something else?” Again, let the kid run, do a dragnet like WnB suggested, pick him up later, etc. He didn’t have to get shot 3 times in the back running away, man.
    Especially since the original 911 caller seemed to know the suspects name and what apartment building he lived in. The officer knew that as well since he asked the suspect if he went by a particular nickname. Also, only one kid ran; the other was in custody so he could potentially give the additional info.

  16. #20536
    Ishmael Smith Junebug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDA View Post
    I call BS. If this was a loved one, I think you’d definitely be asking “surely the police could’ve done something else?” Again, let the kid run, do a dragnet like WnB suggested, pick him up later, etc. He didn’t have to get shot 3 times in the back running away, man.
    If you had a predetermined answer, why ask me the question?

    The “pick him up later” argument is such a farce.

  17. #20537
    I don’t understand folks who claim to be focused on safety of the police above all else but are either silent or defiantly defensive about “muh 2A” when the single greatest impact on police safety would be REDUCING THE GODDAMN AMOUNT OF GUNS. Most likely they are full of shit and don’t really care about the police.

  18. #20538
    Quote Originally Posted by Junebug View Post
    If you had a predetermined answer, why ask me the question?

    The “pick him up later” argument is such a farce.
    Because I wanted to see if you had a different answer if it were a child or nephew of your’s. How hard is it to consider the thought that the kid didn’t have to die?

    The “split second quick trigger” defense is such a farce.

  19. #20539
    Quote Originally Posted by 06deacon View Post
    I don’t understand folks who claim to be focused on safety of the police above all else but are either silent or defiantly defensive about “muh 2A” when the single greatest impact on police safety would be REDUCING THE GODDAMN AMOUNT OF GUNS. Most likely they are full of shit and don’t really care about the police.
    +1

  20. #20540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junebug View Post
    If you had a predetermined answer, why ask me the question?

    The “pick him up later” argument is such a farce.
    Why? That's how most people alleged of committing a crime are brought into custody. I don't understand why killing someone is a better option than finding them later.

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