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Thread: F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

  1. #161
    Police officers have a right to defend themselves, but the right to use deadly force ends when the subject is attempting to flee, and CERTAINLY when the subject is surrendering. Robbing a store and being aggressive toward a cop does not equal forfeiting your right to due process and life.[/QUOTE]

    This +10000. The Ferguson Police Force has done nothing today but try to discredit the dead kid and a witness. Especially now that they say he wasn't pulled over for the alleged robbery.

  2. #162
    The Pumpfaker Stan Gable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeaconSlim2.0 View Post

    And regardless of whether the cop knew about the robbery, if it was Brown and his buddy, THEY knew about the robbery, and would have no way of knowing if the cop knew. It would make sense that their reactions to the cop would change then.
    This

  3. #163
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    F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Gable View Post
    So:

    Brown steals from a convenience store and assaults the clerk. Cop responds and pulls up to Brown and friend. According to the friend, the cop just tells them to "get the fuck off the sidewalk"? That makes zero sense since he is responding to a robbery and the suspect is right in front of him. I'm to believe that he walked up, pulled his gun and plugged the guy multiple times? How were they wrestling in the car?

    I generally hate cops but this defense really makes no sense. Its tragic that the kid got shot and died over a couple of f'ing cigars but Brown has clearly demonstrated aggression by assaulting and robbing the store 10 mins earlier. All of the sudden he is some innocent kid that gets shot for raising his hands and agreeing to being questioned/arrested? Was he resisting arrest? Could you fault a cop fearing for his life if he were to lose his weapon to someone that had just committed a robbery?

    Sadly, we may never know the truth. I can't blame people for being pissed off at the police force. They constantly abuse their power. Just not sure this is the case where you put all your chips in against them.
    Innocent until proven guilty. Mike Brown deserved a day in court.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDeac View Post
    Innocent until proven guilty. Mike Brown deserved a day in court.
    And even if convicted of everything that has been accused (including fighting with and reaching for a cops gun) the punishment is not death.

  5. #165
    He was stopped for jaywalking. Wilson wasn't responding to the robbery call. Confirmed by chief. End of.

    Really fucking frustrating that there's a real world that's complex but still knowable and people prefer discussing wild what-ifs and not the plain facts in front of their faces

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by DistrictDeacon View Post
    I think the bolded is all that is agreed upon. It then widely diverges between Brown being shot in the car, to him being shot multiple time 35 yards away while he had his hands up in the air.
    I'm not trying to be argumentative, just to clarify your statement. The police report stated one shot was fired in the car, and more shots were fired thereafter, resulting in Brown being dead 35 yards away from the police car. The police account is silent on what happened between the first shot (in the car) and the later shots. Multiple witnesses have stated that between the initial altercation and the fatal shots, Brown was running away and then attempting to surrender. I would not say the accounts "widely diverge", I would say the police account does not address those critical moments between the initial altercation and the fatal shots.

    Here are two good summaries of the differing accounts.
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/us/mis...html?hpt=hp_t1
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/us/mis...now/index.html

  7. #167
    The Pumpfaker Stan Gable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinsNDeacs View Post
    And even if convicted of everything that has been accused (including fighting with and reaching for a cops gun) the punishment is not death.
    If you go for a cops gun, you deserve to get shot.

  8. #168
    I disagree with you
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Gable View Post
    If you go for a cops gun, you deserve to get shot.
    WITH A GUN

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDeac View Post
    Innocent until proven guilty. Mike Brown deserved a day in court.
    AGREED.

    So does Darren Wilson.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by JManslow View Post
    Yeah, this Chief is a disaster. No chance he keeps his job.
    In fairness, he's the police chief for a shithole suburb of St. Louis. He wasn't exactly appointed with the foresight that he'd have to be a PR guy for the national media.

  11. #171
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    DeaconSlim2.0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuffaloDeac10 View Post
    He was stopped for jaywalking. Wilson wasn't responding to the robbery call. Confirmed by chief. End of.

    Really fucking frustrating that there's a real world that's complex but still knowable and people prefer discussing wild what-ifs and not the plain facts in front of their faces
    Except that one fact does not encompass all of the events that followed.

  12. #172
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    It may have been different had Brown been shot and killed in a struggle with policeman while at the car.

    The one thing all the witnesses agree to is that Brown was shot in the back and that the cop got out of the car to shoot him.

    The cop got out of the car and shot an unarmed person in the back. These facts are not in dispute.

    Then the cop shot him more times.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Gable View Post
    If you go for a cops gun, you deserve to get shot.
    I'm about as pro cop as you get, but those guys are trained pretty well on when the use of deadly force is justified. If he is in the process of giving up, that isn't justified. There are other elements to consider, though, such as his proximity to the officer when shot and how fast all of this happened. The kid was fucking huge, too, which is another factor they will point to in order to establish that he was a threat.

    Once that cop crosses the line of firing his gun, I suspect it is very tough to turn off that trigger finger, but there is no reason to plug somebody in the back and certainly no reason to put more into them once they're on the ground, if indeed that's what happened.

    If that's what happened, I wouldn't be surprised if we find out this guy served some time in Iraq or Afghanistan, where putting a few in Haji after he goes down is SOP.

  14. #174
    Lot of ridiculous, incendiary phrases like assassinated, convicted and punished being bandied about based on a presumed knowledge of the facts.

    Police & witness accounts:

    "Police have said Brown was shot after an officer encountered him and another man on the street during a routine patrol. They say one of the men pushed the officer into his squad car, then physically assaulted him in the vehicle and struggled with the officer over the officer's weapon. At least one shot was fired inside the car before the struggle spilled onto the street, where Brown was shot multiple times, according to police."

    "Dorian Johnson has told reporters a different story. He said an officer ordered him and Brown onto the sidewalk, then grabbed his friend's neck and tried to pull him into the car before brandishing his weapon and firing. He said Brown started to run and the officer pursued him, firing multiple times."

    Not a clue which account is true. The police's overreaction to the demonstration and mishandling dissemination of information doesn't add to its credibility. But on its face the witness' account isn't very creditable either.

  15. #175
    The Pumpfaker Stan Gable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatLeadCommie View Post
    I'm about as pro cop as you get, but those guys are trained pretty well on when the use of deadly force is justified. If he is in the process of giving up, that isn't justified. There are other elements to consider, though, such as his proximity to the officer when shot and how fast all of this happened. The kid was fucking huge, too, which is another factor they will point to in order to establish that he was a threat.

    Once that cop crosses the line of firing his gun, I suspect it is very tough to turn off that trigger finger, but there is no reason to plug somebody in the back and certainly no reason to put more into them once they're on the ground, if indeed that's what happened.

    If that's what happened, I wouldn't be surprised if we find out this guy served some time in Iraq or Afghanistan, where putting a few in Haji after he goes down is SOP.
    Shooting a defenseless person is never justified. I was speaking of terms when engaged with a suspect. Lethal force should never be used unless warranted. I'd imagine its hard to turn the preservation of life button off once the suspect disengages you and starts to run though.

  16. #176
    The Pumpfaker Stan Gable's Avatar
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    Fitting that the only person on this thread who is speaking with absolute authority on this subject is rjkarl. Its as if he was there....

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Deacon Dog View Post
    Lot of ridiculous, incendiary phrases like assassinated, convicted and punished being bandied about based on a presumed knowledge of the facts.

    Police & witness accounts:

    "Police have said Brown was shot after an officer encountered him and another man on the street during a routine patrol. They say one of the men pushed the officer into his squad car, then physically assaulted him in the vehicle and struggled with the officer over the officer's weapon. At least one shot was fired inside the car before the struggle spilled onto the street, where Brown was shot multiple times, according to police."

    "Dorian Johnson has told reporters a different story. He said an officer ordered him and Brown onto the sidewalk, then grabbed his friend's neck and tried to pull him into the car before brandishing his weapon and firing. He said Brown started to run and the officer pursued him, firing multiple times."

    Not a clue which account is true. The police's overreaction to the demonstration and mishandling dissemination of information doesn't add to its credibility. But on its face the witness' account isn't very creditable either.
    This is why the robbery is very relevant, whether he was hassling them for it or not. First, it speaks to how the two kids reacted to the cop. Second, it will be used to impugn the surviving kid's credibility.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by SkinsNDeacs View Post
    Why is it that every time someone with the name "Michael Brown" is in the news it is bad?

    Sincerely,

    Michael Brown AKA SkinsNDeacs
    You're doing a great job, SkinsNDeacs

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    It may have been different had Brown been shot and killed in a struggle with policeman while at the car.

    The one thing all the witnesses agree to is that Brown was shot in the back and that the cop got out of the car to shoot him.

    The cop got out of the car and shot an unarmed person in the back. These facts are not in dispute.

    Then the cop shot him more times.
    Not being argumentative, but where did you see he was shot in the back? I have read accounts that he was backing away from the officer (implying he was facing him), but not that he was shot in the back. I would imagine if the autopsy shows that he was shot in the back there would have to be charges against the officer.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by wfumike02 View Post
    Not being argumentative, but where did you see he was shot in the back? I have read accounts that he was backing away from the officer (implying he was facing him), but not that he was shot in the back. I would imagine if the autopsy shows that he was shot in the back there would have to be charges against the officer.
    RJ would appreciate you not disputing facts that he has already deemed not in dispute.

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