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F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

PhDeac said:
We are doing that now even with police so clearly cops aren’t working. People don’t feel safe, carry guns, and hire their own private security AND police abuse their power and kill people.
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Yeah, now multiply that times 1,000.
 
It's not about being white. It's about being realistic. Man is nowhere near perfect. The more people you have in a country. The more real criminals you will have. It's just reality.

This is not saying massive and fundamental changes aren't needed. But abolition is not only irrational but unworkable and dangerous.
 
Basically the argument is we have a shitty system now where people are incarcerated, killed by the police, not treated right and therefore this entire system should be abolished. Without changing anything that leads people to commit crimes (like Ph touched on such as living wages, universal income, housing, education etc) In its place another shitty system will be established where there are no police and no prisons and that society will operate where guilt, shame, and who knows what else prevents the actions of others because apparently everyone is now equal and has no wants and desires despite the only thing changing is no police or prisons.
 
Junebug said:
It’s almost like you don’t know the last antecedent rule.
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Never heard of it. I assume it's a legal term.

There's a huge prison labor system in which people are paid far less that market wages while being charged far more than market prices to the point where they essentially work for free but are often unable to translate those skills to the actual labor market once they're out.
 
Louis Gossett Jr said:
Basically the argument is we have a shitty system now where people are incarcerated, killed by the police, not treated right and therefore this entire system should be abolished. Without changing anything that leads people to commit crimes (like Ph touched on such as living wages, universal income, housing, education etc) In its place another shitty system will be established where there are no police and no prisons and that society will operate where guilt, shame, and who knows what else prevents the actions of others because apparently everyone is now equal and has no wants and desires despite the only thing changing is no police or prisons.
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Yep, just burn it down. Don't try to fix it or make it better.

Just like "capitalism" [you know, the real enemy]
 
Louis Gossett Jr said:
Basically the argument is we have a shitty system now where people are incarcerated, killed by the police, not treated right and therefore this entire system should be abolished. Without changing anything that leads people to commit crimes (like Ph touched on such as living wages, universal income, housing, education etc) In its place another shitty system will be established where there are no police and no prisons and that society will operate where guilt, shame, and who knows what else prevents the actions of others because apparently everyone is now equal and has no wants and desires despite the only thing changing is no police or prisons.
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Each link i posted speaks to this:

The first:

Prison abolition, as a movement, sounds provocative and absolute, but what it is as a practice requires subtler understanding. For Gilmore, who has been active in the movement for more than 30 years, it’s both a long-term goal and a practical policy program, calling for government investment in jobs, education, housing, health care — all the elements that are required for a productive and violence-free life. Abolition means not just the closing of prisons but the presence, instead, of vital systems of support that many communities lack. Instead of asking how, in a future without prisons, we will deal with so-called violent people, abolitionists ask how we resolve inequalities and get people the resources they need long before the hypothetical moment when, as Gilmore puts it, they “mess up.”
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The second:

Police abolition could mean and require society to decrease and eliminate its reliance on policing. Rather than re-center police as a public good, the nation must become good and public. The prison–industrial complex must be dissolved. Communities must rebuild labor organizing to shift capital, and the state must drastically disrupt rising wealth inequality. Congress may have to pass laws around prison labor, voting rights, gun ownership, and campaign finance, and decriminalize thousands of behaviors. Social workers and activists must work with communities to find solutions for patriarchal, homophobic, and mental health–based violence. Police abolition advocates and scholars have robust visions for the future beyond transformation.
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the third:

1. Unarmed mediation and intervention teams


Unarmed but trained people, often formerly violent offenders themselves, patrolling their neighborhoods to curb violence right where it starts. This is real and it exists in cities from Detroit to Los Angeles. Stop believing that police are heroes because they are the only ones willing to get in the way of knives or guns – so are the members of groups like Cure Violence, who were the subject of the 2012 documentary The Interrupters. There are also feminist models that specifically organize patrols of local women, who reduce everything from cat-calling and partner violence to gang murders in places like Brooklyn. While police forces have benefited from military-grade weapons and equipment, some of the most violent neighborhoods have found success through peace rather than war.


3. Restorative Justice


Also known as reparative or transformative justice, these models represent an alternative to courts and jails. From hippie communes to the IRA and anti-Apartheid South African guerrillas to even some U.S. cities like Philadelphia’s experiment with community courts, spaces are created where accountability is understood as a community issue and the entire community, along with the so-called perpetrator and the victim of a given offense, try to restore and even transform everyone in the process. It has also been used uninterrupted by indigenous and Afro-descendant communities like San Basilio de Palenque in Colombia for centuries, and it remains perhaps the most widespread and far-reaching of the alternatives to the adversarial court system.

4. Direct democracy at the community level


Reducing crime is not about social control. It’s not about cops, and it’s not a bait-and-switch with another callous institution. It’s giving people a sense of purpose. Communities that have tools to engage with each other about problems and disputes don’t have to consider what to do after anti-social behaviors are exhibited in the first place. A more healthy political culture where people feel more involved is a powerful building block to a less violent world.
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200w.webp


Sorry. Real life results will be public masturbation and drive-by shootings.
 
ConnorEl said:
Yep, just burn it down. Don't try to fix it or make it better.

Just like "capitalism" [you know, the real enemy]
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Attempts to "fix it or make it better" have gotten us to this point. An abolitionist approach says the system isn't "broken" but rather it is working as intended.

And yes, most abolitionists are anti-capitalists.
 
The "burn it down" concept is not workable in the size of a country we have. It would create a terrible over-reaction when violent crime spikes while trying to change on a dime.
 
RJKarl said:
The "burn it down" concept is not workable in the size of a country we have. It would create a terrible over-reaction when violent crime spikes while trying to change on a dime.
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No one is talking about changing on a dime.
 
When the voice of a movement calls violent crimes "messing up", you make Polyanna look suicidal.
 
So about 150 years ago we had a lawless place, it was called the Wild West and it appeared to be pretty fucking awesome I say we all embrace this no police you do you utopia.
 
Louis Gossett Jr said:
So about 150 years ago we had a lawless place, it was called the Wild West and it appeared to be pretty fucking awesome I say we all embrace this no police you do you utopia.
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Can't have that. Dodge City, Tombstone and others had people check their guns as people reached the city limits. The NRA would hate that.
 
pretty impressive when you consider all the minds that have been changed and opposing viewpoints that have been newly understood after 20,471 posts and 1.1 million views of this thread over the last 5 years.
 
DeacDiggler said:
pretty impressive when you consider all the minds that have been changed and opposing viewpoints that have been newly understood after 20,471 posts and 1.1 million views of this thread over the last 5 years.
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What is this in reference to?
 
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