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Goldman paying 3.15 BILLION to settle stinky mortgage claims

2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
"Thousands of dollars in payments down the tubes" - so everybody gets free rent now too? There was zero value for living in those houses?

And wrecked credit histories - holy shit how much better examples can you get of people who should not have access to credit again? That's exactly what credit rankings are for. You made a ginormous dumbass basic credit decision that caused you to fail and bail on the biggest credit acquisition of your life, and together with similar folks managed to crater the economy, but meh, you still deserve an 800 credit score because everyone should definitely lend you money again. Let's give you an Amex, why the hell not?

Debtors prisons, no. But we shouldn't have gone all the way to the other end of the spectrum and given away tax incentives and income forgiveness. We just continue to incentivize stupid decisions.
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You're right blame the victims. Maybe you should have put all the people who believed in Bernie Madoff in jail and let Bernie go free.
 
ChrisL68 said:
Dumb comparison.
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If anything the Madoff people were less victims. They could afford high powered lawyers and accountants to look into Bernie's scam before investing.

A couple buying a first home, refinancing through the same people who financed them the first time or relying on nationally real estate companies for legitimate mortgage brokers have far less access and ability to get help. They also have a trust factor.

The banks and mortgage companies and their agents were totally complicit in this mess. In fact the quotas given to many brokers encouraged fraud and deceit.
 
RJKarl said:
If anything the Madoff people were less victims. They could afford high powered lawyers and accountants to look into Bernie's scam before investing.

A couple buying a first home, refinancing through the same people who financed them the first time or relying on nationally real estate companies for legitimate mortgage brokers have far less access and ability to get help. They also have a trust factor.

The banks and mortgage companies and their agents were totally complicit in this mess. In fact the quotas given to many brokers encouraged fraud and deceit.
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LOL. Yeah people who had millions of dolllars embezzled from them were less victims than people with no wealth who usually lived rent free in a house for a year before it was foreclosed.

Hell, I somehow refied during this period into a 10 year fixed rate loan on my starter house.
 
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Seriously, we are blaming the middle class for buying homes on bad terms for the financial crisis in the 2000s?

That's pretty audacious of you people of whom many are among the folks who pull financial levers in this country. Have you not ass-raped the middle class enough yet? These people were leveraging themselves to the hilt because they couldn't gain any wealth in this fucked up economy which trickles the wealth upward - an indisputable fact. They are out working their asses off and they are trying to have the bullshit American Dream house you are selling, and you assholes in banking and finance rigged that game too. And when it blew up in your face, you now blame the people who were just trying to have a decent life with their families and took a little risk? what a bunch of cunts
 
ChrisL68 said:
LOL. Yeah people who had millions of dolllars embezzled from them were less victims than people with no wealth who usually lived rent free in a house for a year before it was foreclosed.

Hell, I somehow refied during this period into a 10 year fixed rate loan on my starter house.
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They should be less vicitimized as they had the whewewithal to do serious due diligence. The people getting the scam neither had the funds nor the acumen to look into their situations as easily.

What percentage of the people getting mortgages had your training or education?
 
WakeandBake said:
Seriously, we are blaming the middle class for buying homes on bad terms for the financial crisis in the 2000s?

That's pretty audacious of you people of whom many are among the folks who pull financial levers in this country. Have you not ass-raped the middle class enough yet? These people were leveraging themselves to the hilt because they couldn't gain any wealth in this fucked up economy which trickles the wealth upward - an indisputable fact. They are out working their asses off and they are trying to have the bullshit American Dream house you are selling, and you assholes in banking and finance rigged that game too. And when it blew up in your face, you now blame the people who were just trying to have a decent life with their families and took a little risk? what a bunch of cunts
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:plos:
 
When a tycoon puts his money up on unfavorable, risky terms and turns a profit and makes a million, we laud him as a skillful entrepreneur or investor and give him tax breaks and bailouts and he gets blown a lot by hot chicks.

When a middle-class family takes a home loan on risky terms in an attempt to gain a little wealth and have a nice place to live and it tanks largely not of their fault - we blame them as greedy and stupid and there are no blowjobs going around.


'Merica
 
One problem I have with "blaming the victim" is that the government was endorsing/encouraging these loans as "opportunity."
 
awaken said:
One problem I have with "blaming the victim" is that the government was endorsing/encouraging these loans as "opportunity."
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Government
Banks
Consumers
Rating agencies
Insurers

All at fault. It's really that simple.
 
Consistent with my prior posts, there is plenty of blame to go around and my issue is that one major group of malefactors will never get punished.

I hear your points W&B and agree with them to some extent (esp. in regard to how wage stagnation has contributed to over-leveraging among American consumers) but the fact is every American with a heartbeat could have gotten a no-doc exploding ARM loan in 2006. Most of us did not. My wife and I opted for 30-year fixed in 2002 and again in 2004 because we made the educated decision not to take that kind of risk. Others decided to take the risk and got burned. That's what the bankruptcy system is for, to allow people to have a fresh start after risks don't work out, and the credit-rating system is to protect creditors from people with a history of bad decision making.

None of that justifies blaming the whole financial crisis on the middle class, and I'm not sure anyone in this thread was really doing that per se.
 
Deacon923 said:
Consistent with my prior posts, there is plenty of blame to go around and my issue is that one major group of malefactors will never get punished.

I hear your points W&B and agree with them to some extent (esp. in regard to how wage stagnation has contributed to over-leveraging among American consumers) but the fact is every American with a heartbeat could have gotten a no-doc exploding ARM loan in 2006. Most of us did not. My wife and I opted for 30-year fixed in 2002 and again in 2004 because we made the educated decision not to take that kind of risk. Others decided to take the risk and got burned. That's what the bankruptcy system is for, to allow people to have a fresh start after risks don't work out, and the credit-rating system is to protect creditors from people with a history of bad decision making.

None of that justifies blaming the whole financial crisis on the middle class, and I'm not sure anyone in this thread was really doing that per se.
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The whole idea of a no doc mortgage is ludicrous. Who thought that was a good idea?

FWIW, banks have taken massive write-offs, hard to say they haven't been hit with downside. As hard as they should have been, probably not. But there are legitimate reasons for that.
 
Fair enough. But just like on the race discussions there is a contingent who, as soon as the finger is pointed in the direction of their particular group exposing some unfairness, get their backs up and blame the weakest and most vulnerable in the equation.

Let's be honest, the banking system itself, including housing lending, is not under the control of the consumer and is designed to make money for banks, is it not? That is fine, its great. Consumers get homes and banks make some money. Awesome. Consumers will try to get the best deal they can and will weigh the risk as best they can. At the time, property values were skyrocketing and buying a home - by all conventional wisdom, was a way to gain some wealth. Investment advisers encouraged their clients to enter the market, aunts and uncles and moms and dads encourages their kids to get into the market. It made sense. The consumers weren't setting the property values directly, but indirectly through their consumer behavior. This consumer behavior was being manipulated by bankers and the Fed, they were just playing along.

So yes I agree that blame goes all the way around, but if you lay some hundred dollar bills on a path in the woods in front of people who dont have a lot of them and everyone they trust - the bank and the realtor and the man on the news - keeps telling them that that bears won't come...they are eventually going to go for those hundreds. If you are the one laying them out there and you know there is a chance the bears will come, then aren't you really the asshole in the equation, and the guy reaching for the hundred is guilty of merely being fooled by you?
 
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WFU Lurker said:
The whole idea of a no doc mortgage is ludicrous. Who thought that was a good idea?

FWIW, banks have taken massive write-offs, hard to say they haven't been hit with downside. As hard as they should have been, probably not. But there are legitimate reasons for that.
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What are the legitimate reasons for the people committing this fraud to not be in prison?
 
The consumers that made stupid financial decisions were already punished, and to an extent far beyond what their poor decision making warranted. The financial institutions that benefited from it all got a relative slap on the wrist.
 
Liquid Karma said:
The consumers that made stupid financial decisions were already punished, and to an extent far beyond what their poor decision making warranted. The financial institutions that benefited from it all got a relative slap on the wrist.
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In what way were consumers punished? That they lost an asset? In many cases, no (would welcome any study or research that says otherwise, but logic suggests that most foreclosures were on properties underwater). That they lost their credit? Well, of course, but how is that beyond what their decision warranted?

The consumers more likely to be "punished" were actually the ones who made bought within their means under a reasonable loan structure, but happened to do so at or near the top of the market.

Banks had billions and billions worth of write downs related to foreclosed properties.
 
WFU Lurker said:
How many homebuyers who misrepresented their financial position are in prison for fraud?
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Was that really a problem, considering banks lowered their standards to nothing get these loans sold? You practically didn't have to have a financiall position at all. The banks were jonesing for more customers. They had saturated the market so they were manufacturing new customers by handing out loans to practically anyone, and then packing the loans up and selling them upstream.
 
WakeandBake said:
Fair enough. But just like on the race discussions there is a contingent who, as soon as the finger is pointed in the direction of their particular group exposing some unfairness, get their backs up and blame the weakest and most vulnerable in the equation.

Let's be honest, the banking system itself, including housing lending, is not under the control of the consumer and is designed to make money for banks, is it not? That is fine, its great. Consumers get homes and banks make some money. Awesome. Consumers will try to get the best deal they can and will weigh the risk as best they can. At the time, property values were skyrocketing and buying a home - by all conventional wisdom, was a way to gain some wealth. Investment advisers encouraged their clients to enter the market, aunts and uncles and moms and dads encourages their kids to get into the market. It made sense. The consumers weren't setting the property values directly, but indirectly through their consumer behavior. This consumer behavior was being manipulated by bankers and the Fed, they were just playing along.

So yes I agree that blame goes all the way around, but if you lay some hundred dollar bills on a path in the woods in front of people who dont have a lot of them and everyone they trust - the bank and the realtor and the man on the news - keeps telling them that that bears won't come...they are eventually going to go for those hundreds. If you are the one laying them out there and you know there is a chance the bears will come, then aren't you really the asshole in the equation, and the guy reaching for the hundred is guilty of merely being fooled by you?
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I think the risks were more apparent to the consumers than you outline.
 
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