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Biden and "Shylock"

Judging from some of the responses, I'm guessing "The Merchant of Venice" is no longer required reading in most high schools. Anyone who remembers that book should know exactly where the term shylock comes from and that the use of that term isn't a positive reference. Many Jews in Europe were in the money lending business at the time Shakespere wrote of Shylock, so there has been considerable discussion through the years as to whether Shylock was just a despicable person or meant to be a representative view of all Jews (I personally think it's the former). In any event, the character of Shylock became synominous with unethical money lending which is why loan sharks are called shylocks.

To me, shylock is a term that could be used either as a racial slur or as a unflattering reference to shitty people (loan sharks). Growing up in the NE in the 1950's, I wouldn't have used the term in front of a Jewish kid unless I was ready for a fight. I wouldn't use the term today either, as loan shark is equally descriptive and avoids any misunderstanding of my intent.
 
Some background to for my previous post.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michaellevin/why-did-jews-become-money_b_4046093.html

And finally:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-david-jaffee/joe-biden-shakespearean-w_b_5847196.html

"When the vice president spoke at the Legal Services Corp. in Washington on Tuesday, he criticized "Shylocks who took advantage" of servicemen and women by giving them bad loans and foreclosing on their properties. By invoking Shylock, the villain of The Merchant of Venice, Biden trafficked in one of the most insidious stereotypes about Jews, that the people of the book are unethical money lenders.

An absent-minded bumbler, who happens to be a proverbial heart beat from the presidency, Biden is a decent and amiable fellow, who to his credit immediately apologized for his gaffe. He is an Irish-American mensch, who has supported Israel for years, who is loyal to his president and his country, and who has survived many tragedies and challenges, including surgery on his brain..."
 
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Shylock is a pretty sympathetic character all told. He was given one of the best soliloquies in the entire canon.
 
Judging from some of the responses, I'm guessing "The Merchant of Venice" is no longer required reading in most high schools. Anyone who remembers that book should know exactly where the term shylock comes from and that the use of that term isn't a positive reference. Many Jews in Europe were in the money lending business at the time Shakespere wrote of Shylock, so there has been considerable discussion through the years as to whether Shylock was just a despicable person or meant to be a representative view of all Jews (I personally think it's the former). In any event, the character of Shylock became synominous with unethical money lending which is why loan sharks are called shylocks.

To me, shylock is a term that could be used either as a racial slur or as a unflattering reference to shitty people (loan sharks). Growing up in the NE in the 1950's, I wouldn't have used the term in front of a Jewish kid unless I was ready for a fight. I wouldn't use the term today either, as loan shark is equally descriptive and avoids any misunderstanding of my intent.

Even as you say, it can be thought of as either.

Schiester is not a nice term for a lawyer, but it isn't necessarily about Jews. The same thing is true about Shylock.

It ain't a term of endearment, but it isn't specific.

Joe has diarrhea of the mouth, but as many have said, he doesn't a mean or bigoted bone in his body.
 
Even as you say, it can be thought of as either.

Schiester is not a nice term for a lawyer, but it isn't necessarily about Jews. The same thing is true about Shylock.

It ain't a term of endearment, but it isn't specific.

Joe has diarrhea of the mouth, but as many have said, he doesn't a mean or bigoted bone in his body.

I wouldn't say that...I (or for that matter no one on here) knows that for sure. He has definitely said some bigoted things before. "You cannot go to a 7-11 or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I'm not joking"....""I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean". I suspect if a Republican had as many racially charged "gaffs" as this guy you would have the pitchforks out.
 
I still can't believe that RJ is defending this asshole.

Townie makes a great point, though.
 
I agree with this post. I don't have any problem with Biden's charitable donations, but it takes a special level of hypocrisy for him to call others cheap.

Biden thinks he is being charitable when he uses the force he controls to compel others to give their earnings to him so he can forward those earnings to people of his choosing. He probably thinks he should get the Nobel Peace Prize for giving poor folks hundreds of billions of dollars and saving their children from starvation. He also delights in denigrating the people who actually had to work for the money he is giving away. He is a five star politician.
 
I still can't believe that RJ is defending this asshole.

Townie makes a great point, though.

My bad, I should ask Strickland what I should think about everything. After all, he tells I'm wrong about everything. I should clear everything I say and think with him. He knows everything and will tell you so.
 
I still can't believe that RJ is defending this asshole.

Townie makes a great point, though.

It's pretty hypocritical of rj, to be sure.

If this were, as someone else suggested, Paul Ryan saying this, rj would be furious.

I think at the very least, Biden was probably ignorant of the origins of the term. People use "shy" or "shyster" or "Shylock" a lot, yes. That it is common use, much like "gyp," doesn't make it any more acceptable. And it's especially suspect of Biden because he has a history of saying dumb shit, kinda like W did, because he just word vomits often. But one of those two drew ire often for his word choice, and the other gets apologized for.
 
I just find it funny that the poster most likely to accuse other posters of antisemitism is giving this incident, from a high profile politician who says racist shit all the time, a pass.

RJ - I'd love to think with you sometime, though. Sounds trippy!
 
It's pretty hypocritical of rj, to be sure.

If this were, as someone else suggested, Paul Ryan saying this, rj would be furious.

I think at the very least, Biden was probably ignorant of the origins of the term. People use "shy" or "shyster" or "Shylock" a lot, yes. That it is common use, much like "gyp," doesn't make it any more acceptable. And it's especially suspect of Biden because he has a history of saying dumb shit, kinda like W did, because he just word vomits often. But one of those two drew ire often for his word choice, and the other gets apologized for.

You'd be wrong. As I've said the first thing I think of when I hear the term "Shylock", I think of loan shark not about a slur.

But keep telling yourself that. Somewhere on here is a thread about Maxine Waters and her husband making a ton of money off of inside information. I was either the first or the second on the board to call for her to be kicked out of Congress.

As much as I despised W for doing the worst thing any POTUS can do, starting a war of choice based on lies, you'll also find me chastising people for trying to compare him to Hitler. Many times I said that was wrong to do.

I understand that it's much easier to ascribe negative things to RJ knowing that others will support your position. You may not always like what I say, but it is what I believe.

I can tell unequivocally (as I've stated here multiple times), to me the word "Shyloick" is about being a loan shark. The first person I think of when I hear the term is Chili Palmer.

You can guess all you like. You can "decide" what you think I think, but I'm telling you that you are wrong. I'm telling you as clearly as anyone could what I think of when I hear that word.
 
I'm going go throw this out there, as well: defenses like this is why liberals get such a bad rap.
 
You'd be wrong. As I've said the first thing I think of when I hear the term "Shylock", I think of loan shark not about a slur.

I can tell unequivocally (as I've stated here multiple times), to me the word "Shyloick" is about being a loan shark. The first person I think of when I hear the term is Chili Palmer.

Where do you think the "loan shark" Shylock association comes from?
 
You guys just see the name rjkarl and you go on the attack.

Pathetic.

This is sarcasm BTW
 
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I'm going go throw this out there, as well: defenses like this is why liberals get such a bad rap.

A major reason is condescending, ass-kissing, pseudo-know-it-all assholes like you. You tell so many that only you know what is right. You are the board's Cliff Clavin.
 
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Where do you think the "loan shark" Shylock association comes from?

Your assumption is that a guy on the street in NY, Philly, Chicago or other places think Shakespeare rather than Get Shorty or other TV shows or movies.

You think people are living, breathing spelling bee contestants- "Origin of the word"- "Can you use it in a sentence please?" Rather than, who gives a damn? Or, "I didn't know that".
 
Your assumption is that a guy on the street in NY, Philly, Chicago or other places think Shakespeare rather than Get Shorty or other TV shows or movies.

You think people are living, breathing spelling bee contestants- "Origin of the word"- "Can you use it in a sentence please?" Rather than, who gives a damn? Or, "I didn't know that".

By that logic, a guy on the street in NY, Philly, Chicago hears the phrase "Redskin" and thinks:

a) Professional football player from Washington, D.C.;
b) Potato,
c) Native American phrase involving the color red in combination with terms for flesh, skin, and man. These phrases were part of a racial vocabulary that Indians often used to designate themselves in opposition to others whom they (like the Europeans) called black, white, and so on; as noted in 2005, the Indian language scholar Ives Goddard of the Smithsonian Institution.
 
Your assumption is that a guy on the street in NY, Philly, Chicago or other places think Shakespeare rather than Get Shorty or other TV shows or movies.

You think people are living, breathing spelling bee contestants- "Origin of the word"- "Can you use it in a sentence please?" Rather than, who gives a damn? Or, "I didn't know that".

By that logic, a guy on the street in NY, Philly, Chicago hears the phrase "Redskin" and thinks:

a) Professional football player from Washington, D.C.;
b) Potato,
c) Native American phrase involving the color red in combination with terms for flesh, skin, and man. These phrases were part of a racial vocabulary that Indians often used to designate themselves in opposition to others whom they (like the Europeans) called black, white, and so on; as noted in 2005, the Indian language scholar Ives Goddard of the Smithsonian Institution.

Although I know what jh is trying to do here, he is proving the point I'm making to rj.

Words matter or they don't. Be consistent. You wouldn't say nigger, you wouldn't say Oriental, you wouldn't say Redskin to a native American, you shouldn't say Shylock, though apparently you would.

Just be consistent.

If I'm wrong that you'd have this exact line of reasoning for a Republican, I apologize. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I'm suggesting, however, that for someone as sensitive as you to anti-Semitism that you consider that some people do consider the word offensive, and that we should avoid using it in kind.

I'll post this again:

“There is no truer friend of the Jewish people than Joe Biden,” [Anti-Defamation League’s national director] Foxman said in a news release. “Not only has he been a stalwart against anti-Semitism and bigotry, but he has the courage and forthrightness to admit a mistake and use it as an opportunity to learn and to teach others about the harmful effects of stereotypes. He has turned a rhetorical gaffe into a teachable moment.”
He added, “Clearly there was no ill-intent here, but Joe and I agreed that perhaps he needs to bone up on his Shakespeare.”
 
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