• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

The Conservative Case Against the Suburbs

It was interesting to be in Raleigh for the holidays where planning is a daily discussion locally and so much has changed. Really hoping the area can improve public transportation to a support a more dense and vibrant city.
 
http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/1/16/this-isnt-an-annexation-its-a-bailout?utm_content=buffer8d948&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Subdivision refused annexation for years because taxes are bad. Then their infrastructure wore out, and they suddenly realized that annexation is good, because then the more financially productive parts of the city (i.e., the dense parts) will subsidize their sprawly infrastructure. And the funny thing is, nobody in the city government or political leadership is capable of doing the math and realizing what a bad deal this is for the taxpayer.
 
^^ And that article doesn't even begin to take into consideration all of the benefit that those homeowners have taken from the city over the past 40-50 years while refusing to be annexed. The city should tell them to go to hell.
 
Brief post about a town in Boston where only 22 of the lots conform to the existing zoning code. In other words, the entire town is illegal, and yet it's full of people who love their neighborhoods and enjoy living there. This fits right in the sweet spot of "the conservative case" against zoning everything as if it were suburbia - top down government bureaucratic regulation to an imagined ideal, when in fact the free market delivers demonstrably better solutions. http://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2016/6/16/11948630/somerville-zoning-illegal Per the post, approximately 40% of the buildings in Manhattan are also illegal - and yet they are some of the most valuable buildings on the face of the planet. The Georgetown neighborhood in DC is also completely illegal, despite the fact that it is the most exclusive and sought after neighborhood in the city.
 
i assumed density rules arose because of shitty construction tech and fire hazards.

is this one of those things where we think the rules are dumb because we have no problems since implementation of the rules?
 
i assumed density rules arose because of shitty construction tech and fire hazards.

is this one of those things where we think the rules are dumb because we have no problems since implementation of the rules?

The story of modern zoning is too long and complex to distill in one post, but to answer your question - no, that's not correct. Most modern zoning has its roots in utopian thinkers of the 1900s who had these grand visions of orderly "Radiant Cities", the key feature of which is that all the residential goes here, all the stores go there, all the offices go over yonder, and all the industry (read: jobs for poorer people) go anywhere else. The problem, of course, is that it turns out that real human beings don't actually like to live that way. Look at Manhattan: the places that were built at the height of this utopian thinking are the big housing projects where no one who has a choice wants to live. They're devoid of places to shop or work. The rich people live in places like Greenwich Village, Brooklyn Heights (just across the river from Lower Manhattan), Upper East and Upper West, which are rich with mixed uses and convenient access to jobs. Of course, plenty of people do want a big house and yard, but the trend over the past 70 years has been to try and impose suburban building formats EVERYWHERE and not allow neighborhoods to naturally increase in density as demand for density grows. San Francisco is like the universal poster child for this.
 
i assumed density rules arose because of shitty construction tech and fire hazards.

is this one of those things where we think the rules are dumb because we have no problems since implementation of the rules?

Short answer: sort of?

Long answer: SCOTUS upheld zoning laws including density as a use of the police power to regulate nuissances, which goes way back in common law. Legislatively, the English speaking world gets going with this kind of law after the London Fire of 1666, but Parliament's Rebuilding Acts of 1666 and 1670 were kinda overtaken by events as private developers rushed to rebuild without much regard for the laws. But regulating the use of land is basically as old as government itself. US fires have dropped precipitously since the 60s and 70s but I believe that has more to do with building codes and materials in new construction and permitted renos than density provisions in density.
 
Density is a very different issue from modern single-use zoning and obsession over parking requirements. Most of the anecdotes about how a given neighborhood is now "illegal" is much less about density (i.e. occupants per acre) and much more about how the uses within that neighborhood are illegal because they're the "wrong" use in the single-use zone or because they don't have the minimum parking, stormwater retention, set-backs, etc. to fit the building code. My own neighborhood includes a small commercial/restaurant/bar district in the middle of a residential area which everyone loves and which adds huge value to the surrounding community. If it all burned down tomorrow, there is no way it could be rebuilt mainly due to parking and set backs, even if the commercial use is even allowed.
 
FWIW i like my suburban neighborhood planned/built in the 60s

that's fine, many people do and the market will provide the product that people want to live in. Just realize that you and your neighbors don't pay nearly enough in taxes to maintain your suburban roads, sewer and water lines, police and fire protection, and other municipal services. The people and businesses that occupy the denser parts of your town are subsidizing you. "The conservative case against the suburbs" is an eye catching way of saying the market should decide what kind of structures to develop, and everyone should pay the true costs of the choices they make instead of getting subsidized by other taxpayers.
 
that's fine, many people do and the market will provide the product that people want to live in. Just realize that you and your neighbors don't pay nearly enough in taxes to maintain your suburban roads, sewer and water lines, police and fire protection, and other municipal services. The people and businesses that occupy the denser parts of your town are subsidizing you. "The conservative case against the suburbs" is an eye catching way of saying the market should decide what kind of structures to develop, and everyone should pay the true costs of the choices they make instead of getting subsidized by other taxpayers.

meh
 
that's fine, many people do and the market will provide the product that people want to live in. Just realize that you and your neighbors don't pay nearly enough in taxes to maintain your suburban roads, sewer and water lines, police and fire protection, and other municipal services. The people and businesses that occupy the denser parts of your town are subsidizing you. "The conservative case against the suburbs" is an eye catching way of saying the market should decide what kind of structures to develop, and everyone should pay the true costs of the choices they make instead of getting subsidized by other taxpayers.

This would only apply in municipalities where you have dense residential and more suburban residential. I don't think it would apply somewhere like Plano where virtually all the residential is suburban... Correct?
 
This would only apply in municipalities where you have dense residential and more suburban residential. I don't think it would apply somewhere like Plano where virtually all the residential is suburban... Correct?
It applies everywhere, even very small towns. I know nothing about Plano but took a quick look at Google maps. That was enough to tell me it has at least some sort of semi -dense core with mid and high rise buildings. I guarantee that those buildings pay taxes per acre of land that are far higher than the sprawl around them and thus effectively subsidize that sprawl.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
It applies everywhere, even very small towns. I know nothing about Plano but took a quick look at Google maps. That was enough to tell me it has at least some sort of semi -dense core with mid and high rise buildings. I guarantee that those buildings pay taxes per acre of land that are far higher than the sprawl around them and thus effectively subsidize that sprawl.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Yes, there are dense commercial areas...although not that dense really (mostly office parks, not towers)... But the vast majority of residential is going to be suburban. And if a business picks Plano because that's where its employees want to live or because that is where its customer base is, why shouldn't they subsidize the residential infrastructure?

I thought you were talking about transfers between residential areas because that seems far more objectionable. My point is that it is not a universal rule that this happens, not if municipalities are relatively small and are limited primarily to a single housing type. In general, universal rules are always problematic. For example, within Dallas proper, I'd bet the most suburban areas pay well above the average taxes per acre for a residential area because property values are so high. I am not able to find a resource to confirm though.

I don't live in a suburb or particularly want to and agree the infrastructure is obviously more expensive (although there's likely a point where more density is more expensive than less, once you switch to more sky-scraper type construction), but I think there are lots of cases where subsidization (cross residential anyway) is quite minimal.

The suburban home owner in Plano probably subsidizes schools in other counties more than the rare town home owner in Plano subsidizes the infrastructure required by the largest suburban nature of the town.
 
Yes, there are dense commercial areas...although not that dense really (mostly office parks, not towers)... But the vast majority of residential is going to be suburban. And if a business picks Plano because that's where its employees want to live or because that is where its customer base is, why shouldn't they subsidize the residential infrastructure?

I thought you were talking about transfers between residential areas because that seems far more objectionable. My point is that it is not a universal rule that this happens, not if municipalities are relatively small and are limited primarily to a single housing type. In general, universal rules are always problematic. For example, within Dallas proper, I'd bet the most suburban areas pay well above the average taxes per acre for a residential area because property values are so high. I am not able to find a resource to confirm though.

I don't live in a suburb or particularly want to and agree the infrastructure is obviously more expensive (although there's likely a point where more density is more expensive than less, once you switch to more sky-scraper type construction), but I think there are lots of cases where subsidization (cross residential anyway) is quite minimal.

The suburban home owner in Plano probably subsidizes schools in other counties more than the rare town home owner in Plano subsidizes the infrastructure required by the largest suburban nature of the town.

yeah, a lot of Texas could be an exception to this kind of rule. nonetheless if you really dug into the numbers of your city I think you'd see some interesting things. one of the biggest issues, which has been alluded to several times on this thread, is the great divergence in property tax/acre for big box stores vs. more dense commercial districts. That may or may not be an issue in Plano, I don't know, but I bet Plano has a gazillion acres of big box retail. think about how much infrastructure is required to support that land use - the massive intersections, running the sewer and water out to each new giant site, perhaps adding police and fire stations to keep response times acceptable as the city expands. It's very expensive. Now look up how much property tax the Best Buy or Walmart pays divided by the acreage it occupies. Then do the same calculation for a more dense commercial use elsewhere in the city. Even in Plano, I bet you will find that the denser commercial use pays substantially more property tax/acre than Walmart, and also uses substantially less infrastructure. In that case, the dense commercial users are effectively subsidizing their competitors. But that's only part of it; it's also an issue of how cities should spend their money and what kind of development they should encourage/discourage through zoning. encouraging big box retail and sprawly single-family housing requires more investment of public dollars for substantially less return, and, in many cases, that kind of development will never pay enough in property tax during its life cycle to pay back the up front infrastructure cost plus the annual maintenance plus the major replacement (repaving, for example) of the infrastructure it uses.

Actually a good example is Ferguson, MO. From what I have read, the entire place is one big sprawly suburb. It doesn't have any dense uses to pay the property taxes it needs to actually run itself, and so in the end they resorted to basically turning their cops and courts into a giant collections mill to balance the city budget. It's a case study in what eventually happens to a city that's nearly 100% sprawl.
 
The story of modern zoning is too long and complex to distill in one post, but to answer your question - no, that's not correct. Most modern zoning has its roots in utopian thinkers of the 1900s who had these grand visions of orderly "Radiant Cities", the key feature of which is that all the residential goes here, all the stores go there, all the offices go over yonder, and all the industry (read: jobs for poorer people) go anywhere else. The problem, of course, is that it turns out that real human beings don't actually like to live that way. Look at Manhattan: the places that were built at the height of this utopian thinking are the big housing projects where no one who has a choice wants to live. They're devoid of places to shop or work. The rich people live in places like Greenwich Village, Brooklyn Heights (just across the river from Lower Manhattan), Upper East and Upper West, which are rich with mixed uses and convenient access to jobs. Of course, plenty of people do want a big house and yard, but the trend over the past 70 years has been to try and impose suburban building formats EVERYWHERE and not allow neighborhoods to naturally increase in density as demand for density grows. San Francisco is like the universal poster child for this.

Good post, Jane Jacobs. The counterpoint is Houston, which is zone-less and has turned into a sprawling mass of suburbia. And of course zoning can mandate that, say, coal plants can't be built next to schools.

Re: the Vox article, my guess is that most of the zoning changes were made and almost all of the existing buildings were grandfathered. Future new construction would have to conform to zoning codes, but to call the existing buildings "illegal" is silly. The article references Manhattan, but Bloomberg re-zoned like half the city during his tenure to encourage development.

The biggest problem is when it gets political and zoning is used as a power tool. I would agree that zoning as it is is often problematic, but it can be used for good purposes too.
 
Back
Top