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The Conservative Case Against the Suburbs

This article contains some really good breakdowns of all the myriad ways society subsidizes cars and car ownership. Not directly related to the "suburbs" per se but didn't want to start a new thread. From a conservative perspective, consider how much of the property tax you pay goes to pay for streets, without regard to how much you use them.

Despite mythology to the contrary, cars don’t come close to paying for the cost of the transportation system. The Tax Foundation estimates that nationally, only 30 percent of the cost of roads is covered by user fees like the gas tax. Not only do cars get a free ride when it comes to covering the cost of public services—unlike homes, they’re exempt from the property tax—but we tax houses and businesses to pay for car-related costs. Here are three quick examples: While half of storm runoff is from streets, driveways and parking lots, cars aren’t charged anything for stormwater—but houses are. A big share of the fire department’s calls involve responding to car crashes—and cars pay nothing toward fire department costs. Similarly, the police department spends a significant amount of its energy enforcing traffic laws—this cost is borne largely by property taxes—which houses pay, but cars don’t. If we need more money for streets, it ought to be charged on cars.

Adding a further charge on houses to subsidize car travel only worsens a situation in which those who don’t own cars subsidize those who do. One in seven Portland households doesn’t own a car, and because they generally have lower incomes than car owners, fees tied to housing redistribute income from the poor to the rich.
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Utilities are starting to change the way they are priced from a strictly $per unit consumption to a flat "monthly connection cost" plus $ per unit consumption. This is occurring because in many places the units consumed have decreased because of conservation, but the cost to maintain the infrastructure continues to rise. Thus the monthly charge, in addition to the cost of product used.
 
Looks like Wake County has figured out that "growth" doesn't pay for itself. Good for them. Property tax increases are only a very short term answer to the problem of unchecked government-subsidized suburban growth.

I bet that all those schools they built in the last 10 years were on big suburban lots with acres and acres of athletic fields. I'm further betting that all those schools are nearly impossible to walk or bike to for the students that go there. So, by spending their school money on suburban schools, they've locked themselves in to 30-50 years of paying for the operating costs of the bus fleet necessary to get students to those schools. Strong Towns theory (and a lot of education science) would have had smaller schools built in denser, walk/bike neighborhoods, and if people want to live out in the burbs it's their responsibility to transport their kids to school.
 
TuffaloDeac10 said:
Wake County, 1,079 residents per sq mile, needing a tax increase is an argument FOR suburbs?
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It doesn't surprise me that you are unwilling to see an argument to vote against irresponsible local government with your feet. This board has been in office six holiday-stricken weeks. They couldn't possibly have done a faithful search of the budget to see what existing items could be cut. Why do that? So much easier just to vote yourself more of other people's money.

People leave governments that don't regulate themselves.
 
Lol. I'm sure people will soon be fleeing the Raleigh area in droves to escape the evil clutches of the new commissioners.

Still, getting beyond partisan point-scoring, the point is that places like Raleigh have way overbuilt taxpayer-subsidized, low-density infrastructure, which includes far-flung schools. Someone has to pay for it. You can only raise property taxes so much. One solution is to stop building suburbia and expecting it to pay for itself, and loosen up the zoning and building code rules to allow higher density to naturally develop close to existing amenities.
 
jhmd2000 said:
It doesn't surprise me that you are unwilling to see an argument to vote against irresponsible local government with your feet. This board has been in office six holiday-stricken weeks. They couldn't possibly have done a faithful search of the budget to see what existing items could be cut. Why do that? So much easier just to vote yourself more of other people's money.

People leave governments that don't regulate themselves.
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This post has nothing to do with heavily suburban Wake County's possible tax increase somehow making a counter argument in favor of suburbs. How short is your memory?
 
TuffaloDeac10 said:
This post has nothing to do with heavily suburban Wake County's possible tax increase somehow making a counter argument in favor of suburbs. How short is your memory?
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Of course it does. Wake County has more people in it than any county in the State (plenty of build-up on the border on Johnston, Franklin, Granville, Chatham and Durham Counties for some reason....I wonder what that might be....). The fact that when the board flipped to Dems, they immediately raised taxes (rather than be responsible and cut existing waste) is one of the primary reasons people move to the suburbs in 2015: lower taxes, cheaper land and more space. It's not because people adore long commutes and hate being close to entertainment districts. Had the Wake Board decided to cut waste first and raise taxes second, they would make living and doing business in Wake County more affordable and more attractive. They didn't, to the benefit of the surrounding counties. Somehow this confuses you (mainly because it forces you to confront the less attractive sides of your belief system. We get it. Thanks). I know you can't argue with that reality, and I know that because you didn't argue with it. You just decided that my point wasn't relevant (on dubious authority, but we've been here before, haven't we?) and that you didn't wish to debate me on it, so you punted but in your bitchy little way, so you can stay #undefeated in your own mind. Bravo.

eta: If you really don't like suburbs, make your local municipality a better place to live and do business.
 
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jhmd2000 said:
Of course it does. Wake County has more people in it than any county in the State[SUP]1[/SUP] (plenty of build-up on the border on Johnston, Franklin, Granville, Chatham and Durham Counties for some reason....I wonder what that might be....). The fact that when the board flipped to Dems, they immediately raised taxes[SUP]2[/SUP] (rather than be responsible and cut existing waste) is one of the primary reasons people move to the suburbs[SUP]3[/SUP] in 2015: lower taxes, cheaper land and more space. It's not because people adore long commutes and hate being close to entertainment districts. Had the Wake Board decided to cut waste first and raise taxes second, they would make living and doing business in Wake County more affordable and more attractive[SUP]4[/SUP]. They didn't, to the benefit of the surrounding counties[SUP]5[/SUP]. Somehow this confuses you (mainly because it forces you to confront the less attractive sides of your belief system. We get it. Thanks). I know you can't argue with that reality[SUP]6[/SUP], and I know that because you didn't argue with it. You just decided that my point wasn't relevant (on dubious authority, but we've been here before, haven't we?) and that you didn't wish to debate me on it, so you punted but in your bitchy little way, so you can stay #undefeated in your own mind. Bravo.
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1. Literally not true.

2. Also literally not true, taxes won't be increased until Wake's 15-16 budget is adopted and won't be in effect until July 1, probably being due in December or so.

3. Wake is literally filled with suburbs.

4. However compelling this line of thinking is, it has nothing to do with whether or not Wake County, a county full of suburbs, raising taxes makes suburbs more attractive. Perhaps it makes other suburbs more attractive but that is neither here nor there.

5. No taxes have yet been raised. You are celebrating really early here.

6. Here's the reality: Wake County is full of suburbs. "Wake = bad" is not an argument for suburbs.
 
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jhmd2000 said:
The fact that when the board flipped to Dems, they immediately raised taxes (rather than be responsible and cut existing waste) is one of the primary reasons people move to the suburbs in 2015: lower taxes, cheaper land and more space. It's not because people adore long commutes and hate being close to entertainment districts. Had the Wake Board decided to cut waste first and raise taxes second, they would make living and doing business in Wake County more affordable and more attractive. They didn't, to the benefit of the surrounding counties.
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From the article you posted:

With Republicans controlling the board of commissioners during all but two years since 2002...
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But it's the Dem's fault that the county budget is (allegedly) full of waste? Which is it, jhmd: (a) the GOP regime failed for over a decade to do their job, and left the county swimming in waste that needs to be cut by the Democrats, or (b) the GOP succeeded in paring down the budget, so there's no fat left to cut and taxes have to be raised?

I don't really expect or want you to answer the question. Partisan sniping in the realm of municipal/county governance is the epitome of dumb. There's no Republican way to fill a pothole, as they say. The real answer is that both parties in Wake County have willingly and gladly taken the cash offered by the real estate development industry and happily spent taxpayer money building out ultimately unsustainable suburban infrastructure. Whichever party is in power when the bill comes due is going to be in the crosshairs of people like you, on both sides of the aisle, who can only see any form of political discussion as an opportunity for partisan point-scoring.
 
Realistically, though, there are partisan differences in how you pave a street since only one major party is interested in complete streets.
 
Deacon923 said:
From the article you posted:



But it's the Dem's fault that the county budget is (allegedly) full of waste? Which is it, jhmd: (a) the GOP regime failed for over a decade to do their job, and left the county swimming in waste that needs to be cut by the Democrats, or (b) the GOP succeeded in paring down the budget, so there's no fat left to cut and taxes have to be raised?

I don't really expect or want you to answer the question. Partisan sniping in the realm of municipal/county governance is the epitome of dumb. There's no Republican way to fill a pothole, as they say. The real answer is that both parties in Wake County have willingly and gladly taken the cash offered by the real estate development industry and happily spent taxpayer money building out ultimately unsustainable suburban infrastructure. Whichever party is in power when the bill comes due is going to be in the crosshairs of people like you, on both sides of the aisle, who can only see any form of political discussion as an opportunity for partisan point-scoring.
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Again, I marvel at the audacity to be able to close the universe of possibilities from which others must choose. it certainly couldn't be that the Dems didn't bother to look for cuts, but proceeded to immediately raise taxes because they never met a tax hike they didn't like No, not that at all. #undefeated indeed.
 
For the record, no taxes have been raised by the newly Democratic controlled Board of Commissioners in Wake County. The idea has been floated as a possibility for FY 16, a budget that will not be approved until June.

Also, if flight to the suburbs and bordering counties is an issue, here are the FY 15 tax rates of the surrounding counties (per $100 of valuation)
Johnston - 78 cents
Franklin - 87.25 cents
Granville - 83 cents
Chatham - 62.19 cents
Durham - 79.31 cents
Wake - 57.80 cents
 
jhmd2000 said:
Again, I marvel at the audacity to be able to close the universe of possibilities from which others must choose. it certainly couldn't be that the Dems didn't bother to look for cuts, but proceeded to immediately raise taxes because they never met a tax hike they didn't like No, not that at all. #undefeated indeed.
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LOL yes, once of us is certainly foreclosing the universe of possibilities. this is probably your least self-aware post of the year but you've plenty of time to top it.
 
DeacHawk said:
For the record, no taxes have been raised by the newly Democratic controlled Board of Commissioners in Wake County. The idea has been floated as a possibility for FY 16, a budget that will not be approved until June.

Also, if flight to the suburbs and bordering counties is an issue, here are the FY 15 tax rates of the surrounding counties (per $100 of valuation)
Johnston - 78 cents
Franklin - 87.25 cents
Granville - 83 cents
Chatham - 62.19 cents
Durham - 79.31 cents
Wake - 57.80 cents
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Ad valorem tax rates are not a necessarily accurate measure of the tax burden as property values are higher in Wake County than any of the other counties you have listed here. Also, Wake is due for a revaluation of all real property by 2016, so the county could actually lower the rate the following year and remain revenue neutral.
 
BiffTannen said:
Ad valorem tax rates are not a necessarily accurate measure of the tax burden as property values are higher in Wake County than any of the other counties you have listed here. Also, Wake is due for a revaluation of all real property by 2016, so the county could actually lower the rate the following year and remain revenue neutral.
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Agreed, and lower taxes, cheaper land and more space aren't the only decision points on where someone chooses to live. A 2-3 cent property tax increase in FY 16 for Wake County (which isn't even proposed at this point, just an idea floated) isn't going to bring on some sort of huge migration out to the surrounding counties by residents and businesses.
 
BiffTannen said:
Ad valorem tax rates are not a necessarily accurate measure of the tax burden as property values are higher in Wake County than any of the other counties you have listed here. Also, Wake is due for a revaluation of all real property by 2016, so the county could actually lower the rate the following year and remain revenue neutral.
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Not to mention that the Wake County taxes are in addition to city taxes, which are not an issue in unincorporated areas of Granville, Johnston, Franklin and Chatham County. Just ignore an entire sovereign to make the facts fit your conclusion. Help yourself. But again, if you don't think that people vote against poorly run government with their feet, keep being surprised when it happens again and again.
 
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