Danny Manning Credibility Watch

To be clear, if all we ever are under Manning is a borderline top 50 team that occasionally makes the tournament once every 3-4 years then he will clearly need to go. And if after Year 4 or 5 an AD other than Wellman decides that Manning is unlikely to be much more than that I will be fine if we go in a different direction.

I just don't think there is much sense in declaring that as Manning's ceiling halfway into the first season back at that level and third season of rebuilding a completely destroyed program.

There are a lot of us who have seen below standard coaching for an ACC team. If I do not see significant improvement in the last half of the year, I will be Manning out.

There is still half of the year remaining so who knows. If the current trend of winning about 15% of ACC games and 0% of ACC away games continues, you would have to be an optimistic blind idiot to not want change. Better than BZ cannot be the goal.

I agree but pointing to the last two years, which were full on rebuilding years, as evidence of shorty coaching seems silly.

Lumping those years together with 2 ACC losses to top 25 teams and going "OMG it's a trend" also seems silly and premature. If we go 2-16, or even 5-13, then there is clear cause for concern. I just think people are failing to see the clear improvements this year and are unable to separate this year from last year.

Given that we are a top 50 team despite our inexperience and lack of highly rated recruits, Manning has clearly proven he is at least above average (if not better) in spotting talent and/or developing players.

Plus in game coaching is way overrated. I'd put it behind recruiting, motivation, offensive and defensive system, and player development.

The two areas where Manning needs to improve are developing a defensive system and motivating/instilling confidence in his team.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: We don't have a single, true scholarship senior on the team. There is an entire recruiting class just missing from our team, and it would be a SENIOR class. Thus, we start 3 sophomores, a junior and a Milwaukee transfer. Our first man off the bench is a Tulsa transfer. And people wonder why our caliber of play, especially at the end of games and on the road, isn't up to par.

Wake Forest is currently #44 in the country. If WF finishes the season #57 or better, it would be WF basketball's best final rating since the 2009 WF basketball team which included 4 future NBA players, and was rated #1 in the country in mid-January.

I guess some people get off on staking to a position on the world-wide web and never moving off of it to claim some sort of anonymous superiority on this message board, but the bottom line is that WF basketball is the best it has been in at least 7 years, is bringing in its highest rated recruit in a decade, and is in the best shape it has been since Skip Prosser's death.

To those that matter and/or are reasonable, Danny Manning's credibility is strong.

everyone agrees manning had an uphill climb from the abyss. think we also all agree the blame is wellman's. because of wellman's previous two wake bball decisions 1 - timing of firing dino 2 - hire of [name redacted] he was left with limited options this time around. it's a shame really. his legacy may have been tarnished for a few years but had he left with [name redacted] there would have been a true clean house and, potentially, better options.

his ego and enablers did not allow that to happen.

the real issue for the future of wake forest basketball is that post [name redacted] hangover people cautiously peaked out of their normal lives and thought "could wake be back?" for for awhile all the hurt and resentment created over the last few years started to recede. the fog looked like it was lifting and many were trying to get excited again. fog looked like it might be clearing. we popped our heads out of a bunker and felt a little sunshine.

manning may or may not be the answer. maybe not even an answer to wake being mediocre or good again. the real problem is that after getting burned by wellman, wake forest basketball fandom, not manning, has a really short leash.

the more we see patterns in manning's coaching that lead to a feeling that he is making the same mistakes and he is still losing games the more likely we are to write him, and wf basketball off, again. the ones that saw the [name redacted] disaster coming don't feel like going throough it again. the ones that clung to the hope [name redacted] "just needed his players" don't want to be burned again.

i don't know if he has what it takes to become a really good college basketball coach at wake. i do know that because of wellman's treatment of the fan base he has a really short leash whether he deserves it or not.

good luck danny. here's hoping the flashes of good we see are growing and the flashes of bad are being left behind. best of luck. we'll need it. manning won't be going anywhere this season or next. unfortunately for him the longer it takes the more of us will tune out and may never tune back in.

RChildress107 said:

Plus in game coaching is way overrated. I'd put it behind recruiting, motivation, offensive and defensive system, and player development.

The two areas where Manning needs to improve are developing a defensive system and motivating/instilling confidence in his team.

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I don't disagree with this post. Developing a defensive system would be my number one priority. In game coaching can easily be overrated. That said, Manning seems way behind the curve on issues like playing time and lineups. I have doubts about how much improvement we will see.

As a bit of an aside, I wonder what the deal is with Richard Washington and Donovan Mitchell. I would venture that both have seen less minutes than walk-ons. Curious that he would use two scholarships and yet not play them at all in a 30-point victory.

Great post Pilchard. Some of these idiots need to read that post, pretty much spot on.

knowell said:

I don't disagree with this post. Developing a defensive system would be my number one priority. In game coaching can easily be overrated. That said, Manning seems way behind the curve on issues like playing time and lineups. I have doubts about how much improvement we will see.

As a bit of an aside, I wonder what the deal is with Richard Washington and Donovan Mitchell. I would venture that both have seen less minutes than walk-ons. Curious that he would use two scholarships and yet not play them at all in a 30-point victory.

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His lineups and playing time issues have already improved from last year (though they could certainly get better). I don't agree with how he handles Collins foul issues, but it's hardly an unorthodox approach.

The most likely explanation on Washington and Mitchell is that they aren't very good right now. I'm totally fine with Manning allocating garbage minutes to reward effort rather than to develop players.

Pilchard said:

Wake Forest is currently #44 in the country. If WF finishes the season #57 or better, it would be WF basketball's best final rating since the 2009 WF basketball team which included 4 future NBA players, and was rated #1 in the country in mid-January.

I guess some people get off on staking to a position on the world-wide web and never moving off of it to claim some sort of anonymous superiority on this message board, but the bottom line is that WF basketball is the best it has been in at least 7 years, is bringing in its highest rated recruit in a decade, and is in the best shape it has been since Skip Prosser's death.

To those that matter and/or are reasonable, Danny Manning's credibility is strong.

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Have to point out the LOLworthy contradiction of biblical proportions here.

Washington has three times more minutes than any walk on. Mitchell is on par with them though.

I'm glad our team is decent enough that we don't need to push them into significant play as freshmen. It's not uncommon on good teams - I think Wake fans have just forgotten that after all the "this 2/3 star guy will be huge for us on day 1!!!" promises of coaches past...

Also, walk-on minutes are for walk-ons. Scholarship players should only give a shit about actual minutes. These guys go up against our starters every day in practice - getting 30 seconds against 5'10" YMCA all-stars is borderline insulting...

Pilchard said:

Wake Forest is currently #44 in the country. If WF finishes the season #57 or better, it would be WF basketball's best final rating since the 2009 WF basketball team which included 4 future NBA players, and was rated #1 in the country in mid-January.

I guess some people get off on staking to a position on the world-wide web and never moving off of it to claim some sort of anonymous superiority on this message board, but the bottom line is that WF basketball is the best it has been in at least 7 years, is bringing in its highest rated recruit in a decade, and is in the best shape it has been since Skip Prosser's death.

To those that matter and/or are reasonable, Danny Manning's credibility is strong.

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You act as though an RPI rating mid season is validation of how good the team is. That validation will be in the end of year record. If Wake ends up the 44th best team in the country, then that will mean something. So far, this team has not beaten any tournament teams. Last year's team had more impressive early season wins and finished with 2 ACC wins.

Let's hold off on the coronation until we after we get the first quality win.

I think people have simply forgotten that pre-2010, outside of our very best teams, Wake Forest Basketball consistently blew leads against top 25 teams after controlling the game for 30 minutes.

DCDeac said:

Washington has three times more minutes than any walk on. Mitchell is on par with them though.

I'm glad our team is decent enough that we don't need to push them into significant play as freshmen. It's not uncommon on good teams - I think Wake fans have just forgotten that after all the "this 2/3 star guy will be huge for us on day 1!!!" promises of coaches past...

Also, walk-on minutes are for walk-ons. Scholarship players should only give a shit about actual minutes. These guys go up against our starters every day in practice - getting 30 seconds against 5'10" YMCA all-stars is borderline insulting...

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Maybe so, but I would like to see 8 minutes or so of actual playing time for both of them in that kind of blowout. There really is no substitute for game minutes if they will eventually contribute. If that is not the case, then it appears the scholarships may have been wasted.

Pilchard said:

Wake Forest is currently #44 in the country. If WF finishes the season #57 or better, it would be WF basketball's best final rating since the 2009 WF basketball team which included 4 future NBA players, and was rated #1 in the country in mid-January.

I guess some people get off on staking to a position on the world-wide web and never moving off of it to claim some sort of anonymous superiority on this message board, but the bottom line is that WF basketball is the best it has been in at least 7 years, is bringing in its highest rated recruit in a decade, and is in the best shape it has been since Skip Prosser's death.

To those that matter and/or are reasonable, Danny Manning's credibility is strong.

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So anybody who doesn't agree with you automatically doesn't matter, and isn't reasonable? Who exactly is claiming internet superiority here?

It is possible to say that Danny is making strides, yet still isn't the coach we need for wake forest basketball. There is such a thing as nuance. I can say he's doing certain things right, and have said as much, while still rendering my opinion that it's clear to me he will not get us to consistent possibilities of ACC championships and sweet 16 runs, which I am assuming is everyone's goal here. I don't know if you were critiquing me specifically; my position is that he is useful in helping us to get out of the redacted situation, yet will not be the best long-term option for our program. We will need someone better if we ever hope to achieve those goals. Not one run to the Sweet 16, which could happen simply by us getting LSU-hot for a few games, but a program that regularly has good shots at Sweet 16s. Wake forest should definitely be the kind of program that can do that.

Shouldn't we have a coach who we believe has a good shot at getting us to a final four? Does everyone think Danny Manning is that guy? Some of you surely do, and that's OK, this is a message board of opinions. Mine is that he is not that calibre of coach.

CantStandYa said:

Have to point out the LOLworthy contradiction of biblical proportions here.

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Beat me to it.

Manning has used blowouts this season to practice stuff for players that play. Experimenting with defenses, feeding a certain player like Doral to get reps, etc. That's probably better for our team.

RChildress107 said:

I think people have simply forgotten that pre-2010, outside of our very best teams, Wake Forest Basketball consistently blew leads against top 25 teams after controlling the game for 30 minutes.

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Don't worry, I haven't forgotten. Blowing leads has been a given for most wake sports teams, not just basketball, for as long as I can remember. Hell, even with our teams in the mid-90's, it was the same ole song and dance. The fact of the matter is the ACC has always been tough to win in basketball, and it isn't getting any easier. It's going to take 2 or 3 Chaundee Brown type of caliber recruits to ensure we finish in the top 8 of the league on an annual basis.

RChildress107 said:

I think people have simply forgotten that pre-2010, outside of our very best teams, Wake Forest Basketball consistently blew leads against top 25 teams after controlling the game for 30 minutes.

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That's absolutely true. Which is the point. Aren't we all ready for something better?