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Danny Manning Credibility Watch

Ayo said:
Sure.

@BSD_RaJohnston 19h
Manning is showing little understanding of what it takes to win on a consistent basis
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It was a frustrating half and that was in a series of posts about poor substitution patterns throughout, which he does need to work on.

I admit that I make hot taeks during the course of the game instead of looking big picture. That's what being a fan is about, getting way too high or low during a specific game based on how your team is playing.

Thanks for deleting my real name though. Not sure why you thought it was alright to post that in the first place.
 
I like Manning but have some concerns. Despite having Crawford as a our team leader, we are not an emotional team. Our defensive pressure never becomes smothering and never seems to increase off a shooting streak or an excited crowd. Since Manning is so staid on the sideline, I fear we are a reflection of him. I did see Chill jump up pissed off about something last night against BC, which I was pleased to see.

All that said, I was pretty sure we were going to come out and lose by 7 in the second half last night. The flip side of an unemotional team hopefully is poise with a little more experience. I sure would love to see our team look like they are having fun though. I miss Skip in that regard. Only Dino and sometimes Craw look like they are having fun. I worried that the pressure of going 0-3 and what that would mean was sitting on our team's shoulders last night. Couple that with a better BC team than expected and one brimming with confidence and I was worried.

Of course, BC was bound to hit a wall due to the scheduling gods gifting us 50%+ of our win last night and that did happen and I am not sure we deserve any credit for that.

So ... still on the fence. I think Manning is repping Wake well. The team is better off than anytime since Skip was alive and that is a good thing. Not sure I'd want to be stuck in a tent with Manning on the side of a mountain for a week without a bag full of books, but i quibble. Skip would have been fun to be stuck in a tent with.
 
RChildress107 said:
That's Kenpom. They are #20 in RPI.

And Kenpom is designed precisely to gauge how good a team is at any present moment.
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Right.

There is a ton of basketball left to be played, but if the season ended now this would be the 6th best Wake team since 2002:

2005 (7)
2004 (14)
2003 (21)
2009 (24)
2002 (36)
2017 (44)
 
Deacsfan27 said:
It was a frustrating half and that was in a series of posts about poor substitution patterns throughout, which he does need to work on.

I admit that I make hot taeks during the course of the game instead of looking big picture. That's what being a fan is about, getting way too high or low during a specific game based on how your team is playing.

Thanks for deleting my real name though. Not sure why you thought it was alright to post that in the first place.
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You regularly post your BSD articles (which have your real name), so it didn't cross my mind you'd care. As I said in PM, my apologies.
 
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Ayo said:
You regularly post your BSD articles (which has your real name), so it didn't cross my mind you'd care. As I said in PM, my apologies.
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Right, that's my discretion as to what I post with my real name.

Apology accepted. We can move on.
 
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We are 44/FP, 20 RPI,47 Sagarin and first four out in Lunardi.

We are doing it with one low 4* playing significant minutes, but Manning can't coach. Hmmmmmm///
 
Among the 20 seasons prior to [Redacted], this team so far would rank right after our NIT winning team and right ahead of Dino's last team based on sports reference's rating system. This would match up well with Kenpom.

I expect we will end up right about where the 09-10 team ended up but on the wrong side of the bubble due to the strength of the ACC. Not bad for year 3 and encouraging moving forward given that we return our whole team and add a top 30 recruit at our biggest position of need.
 
RChildress107 said:
Among the 20 seasons prior to [Redacted], this team so far would rank right after our NIT winning team and right ahead of Dino's last team based on sports reference's rating system. This would match up well with Kenpom.

I expect we will end up right about where the 09-10 team ended up but on the wrong side of the bubble due to the strength of the ACC. Not bad for year 3 and encouraging moving forward given that we return our whole team and add a top 30 recruit at our biggest position of need.
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Pretty interesting. I pulled up that team's roster and schedule for a trip down memory lane. Aminu and Ish Smith on the roster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9310_Wake_Forest_Demon_Deacons_men's_basketball_team
 
If we end up on the bubble, we have overachieved our level of talent.
 
DCDeac said:
What I don't get is how anyone speaks in such absolutes like this.

Roy Williams is no in-game coaching master... But UNC isn't trapped in mediocrity because of it. Shaka Smart was beloved by this board, but he has 7 losses to unranked teams and a losing record at Texas - despite having 4 and 5 star guys along with limitless resources at a huge school that can admit anyone.

It's not even that hard to imagine based on how close Manning was to having Giles starting at the 3 for us this year. As a one-and-done he'd likely still have landed Brown or even someone higher to replace him next year. But more than that, the most critical piece of creating a program that can compete every year is recruiting. Full stop. Guys outplaying their rankings, players perfectly fitting a system for a year or two - it happens. But great programs get consistently great players, and as a small school with legit academics and a fairly homogenous, reclusive campus - it's an uphill battle. Having a big name helps. Taking a modern, relentless approach to recruiting helps. Having an eye for talent and a reputation for player development helps.

I get that people see him on the sidelines making questionable decisions and think, this guy is too restrained, he's not seeing all the angles, he doesn't manage timeouts well, etc... And if you suspect he'll never improve or whatever, then fine. But to have an opinion in year 3 that it's an absolute impossibility that Danny Manning will ever lead a legitimately successful program just doesn't seem reasonable.
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Everyone eventually makes a determination about a coach. You're still forming yours. I've made mine. And it actually is reasonable, since reasonable is a broad definition. Manning is good at certain things but I have seen enough to believe he won't get us to where we all want to go. That's my opinion, and it is reasonable. Also it is why message boards were invented. You're still waiting on more evidence before you make your final determination. So be it. That is reasonable also. I can think it's reasonable and still wrong. (You'd never guess I was married!)
 
DeacDaddy said:
Everyone eventually makes a determination about a coach. You're still forming yours. I've made mine. And it actually is reasonable, since reasonable is a broad definition. Manning is good at certain things but I have seen enough to believe he won't get us to where we all want to go. That's my opinion, and it is reasonable. Also it is why message boards were invented. You're still waiting on more evidence before you make your final determination. So be it. That is reasonable also. I can think it's reasonable and still wrong. (You'd never guess I was married!)
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It's not that reasonable actually. The most reasonable view is that we simply don't have enough information. Your view is purely speculative as is any view that Manning will definitely get us to Odom/Skip levels. The latter view, however, benefits from the fact that Manning is likely to improve with experience.
 
RChildress107 said:
It's not that reasonable actually. The most reasonable view is that we simply don't have enough information. Your view is purely speculative as is any view that Manning will definitely get us to Odom/Skip levels. The latter view, however, benefits from the fact that Manning is likely to improve with experience.
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To say that it is literally unreasonable to form an opinion about Danny Manning after seeing patterns in his coaching - especially an opinion that takes into account good things he has done - is actually what is unreasonable. I have not said that thinking Danny could be a good coach is unreasonable. But stating that my opinion is speculative, and therefore wrong, is unreasonable. By your logic only those who are completely neutral are reasonable, and Danny has been here too long for some of us to remain completely neutral. It's OK to have an opinion, my friends! Especially one that is backed by trends.

You guys need to broaden your understanding of reasonable viewpoints, and also remember the good and beautiful purpose of a message board. Appears you have forgotten its reason for existence.
 
DeacDaddy said:
To say that it is literally unreasonable to form an opinion about Danny Manning after seeing patterns in his coaching - especially an opinion that takes into account good things he has done - is actually what is unreasonable. I have not said that thinking Danny could be a good coach is unreasonable. But stating that my opinion is speculative, and therefore wrong, is unreasonable. By your logic only those who are completely neutral are reasonable, and Danny has been here too long for some of us to remain completely neutral. It's OK to have an opinion, my friends! Especially one that is backed by trends.

You guys need to broaden your understanding of reasonable viewpoints, and also remember the good and beautiful purpose of a message board. Appears you have forgotten its reason for existence.
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It is unreasonable, based on the information we have, to conclude definitively that Danny Manning is incapable of leading us to a sustained level of play at or above 1990-2010 levels.

If that's not the conclusion you have drawn then my apologies.
 
It's not reasonable due to the fact you haven't seen him with a decent roster.

The loss to UVA last year had nothing to with Danny. He got us a lead and down the stretch his sets got the ball to the guys we wanted to shoot FTs and take open shots. They missed.

As others and I said before the game., F$U was a terrible match-up for us. They should have dominated the game from the opening tip. They finally with some brains in the second and pulled away.

Clemson was a bad game all around. Danny and others have to look at that one as a bad one.
 
DeacDaddy said:
Everyone eventually makes a determination about a coach. You're still forming yours. I've made mine. And it actually is reasonable, since reasonable is a broad definition. Manning is good at certain things but I have seen enough to believe he won't get us to where we all want to go. That's my opinion, and it is reasonable. Also it is why message boards were invented. You're still waiting on more evidence before you make your final determination. So be it. That is reasonable also. I can think it's reasonable and still wrong. (You'd never guess I was married!)
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I mean, believe whatever you want, but that is utter nonsense. Reasonable literally means backed by justification and explanation, not pure opinion. Uninformed opinions are not reasonable. Sure, it's a message board and you can just think and post whatever you want. Your opinion could be that Manning won't win another ACC game in his coaching career. It could be that Crawford should be benched for Troy Rike. Or that former players don't make good coaches. There are all kinds of absolutely unreasonable opinions.

Your posts are full of certainty with basically zero justification. You just say he's ok but to be successful we'll need someone "better." The response when challenged that "all opinions are valid" is the kind of hippy "let's not keep score" all feelings count nobody is ever wrong stuff that drives people crazy. And of course your opinion is speculative and possibly wrong. You're seriously arguing that your opinion is not speculative?
 
RChildress107 said:
It is unreasonable, based on the information we have, to conclude definitively that Danny Manning is incapable of leading us to a sustained level of play at or above 1990-2010 levels.

If that's not the conclusion you have drawn then my apologies.
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In spite of his talents, I see flaws that I don't think he will overcome. You see flaws that you think he could overcome. Neither of us is unreasonable.

We are posting on a 105-page thread entitled "Danny Manning Credibility Watch," populated by numerous smart posters of differing opinions. Yet you alone are the arbiter of what's reasonable?
 
DeacDaddy said:
In spite of his talents, I see flaws that I don't think he will overcome. You see flaws that you think he could overcome. Neither of us is unreasonable.

We are posting on a 105-page thread entitled "Danny Manning Credibility Watch," populated by numerous smart posters of differing opinions. Yet you alone are the arbiter of what's reasonable?
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Just to be precise, what you've posted is that it's not possible for Manning to overcome his flaws and you are certain of it. What other are posting is that they think it's somewhat likely/unlikely that he overcomes those flaws.
 
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