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Danny Manning Credibility Watch

birdman said:
I didn't say it was a negative for Manning to have Collins, but, setting aside for a moment the fact that it is the lowest possible bar we can set, how can we say "at least he is better than Bz" without acknowledging that his over all record is only marginally better than Bz, and he had the benefit of a borderline lottery pick on his team for two years. How does that not make you cringe and doubt Manning's ability to coach a basket ball TEAM? Good recruiter, great big man developer, not a team coach.

I also never said I don't like Manning. I do, in fact, like him a lot and really wish he was a better coach.
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Sorry, it read like it was supposed to be a negative in your post. Manning definitely has his drawbacks as I've agreed before but just saying "had Collins for two years, should've been better" isn't an effective way to criticize him in my opinion. I don't think he was ready his freshman year and we had a guy in front of him averaging a double double. It's clear that players make a huge jump when they work hard with Manning as seen by Collins and Moore (and probably Thomas).
 
but birdman, we're not only better now than we were under Bz, we're at least as good as we were during the 3-year run that is easily the (other) worst stretch of WFU basketball in the last 30 years

at least as good as the worst of the last 30 years!
 
deacfan123 said:
The expectations are to be bottom tier losers. That is what we are almost every season, besides last, which seems to be a fluke. John Collins type players don't come around that often and DM rode that to a play in game. Any improvement on that in the next 3 seasons would be surprising. I'm not sure what you've seen in this team to give them any kind of praise.
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I certainly have higher expectations for Wake Forest Basketball than anything we’ve seen the last 8 years, including last year. I have even higher hopes. I did not and won’t praise this team. They’ve been bad and have underachieved, both are troubling.

That said, credit and blame should be placed where they are due. 4 years ago, if [Redacted] had put a top 100 team on the floor there are many on here who would have accepted that and called for him to have another year. That most are no longer doing so is a sign that expectations have risen. Manning gets credit for that. He also gets credit for taking over a decimated program and getting it to the tourney in three years on the back of a 3* recruit. In the same vein, he gets the full blame for the team’s performance this year, at least to the extent it has failed to reach its potential (which is probably a borderline top 50 team).
 
RChildress107 said:
I certainly have higher expectations for Wake Forest Basketball than anything we’ve seen the last 8 years, including last year. I have even higher hopes. I did not and won’t praise this team. They’ve been bad and have underachieved, both are troubling.

That said, credit and blame should be placed where they are due. 4 years ago, if [name redacted] had put a top 100 team on the floor there are many on here who would have accepted that and called for him to have another year. That most are no longer doing so is a sign that expectations have risen. Manning gets credit for that. He also gets credit for taking over a decimated program and getting it to the tourney in three years on the back of a 3* recruit. In the same vein, he gets the full blame for the team’s performance this year, at least to the extent it has failed to reach its potential (which is probably a borderline top 50 team).
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Wrong. Very wrong.
 
birdman said:
Being better than [Redacted] is the lowest possible bar we could set for a basketball coach. As of last night Manning finally has a better ACC record than [Redacted] and, for what it’s worth, [Redacted] didn’t have John Collins on his roster for 2 years.
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It’s a low bar indeed. But the fact that Manning routinely clears it makes comparisons to [Redacted] look foolish. We are back in the range of Wake Forest basketball during the 20 years preceding [Redacted], albeit on the mid-low end over the past two seasons.

Part of the reason [Redacted] sucked as much as he did is that he could not recruit or develop players like John Collins. I’m glad Manning can.
 
thatguy2016 said:
but birdman, we're not only better now than we were under Bz, we're at least as good as we were during the 3-year run that is easily the (other) worst stretch of WFU basketball in the last 30 years

at least as good as the worst of the last 30 years!
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88-90 was worse, but point taken. Should Skip have been fired after the 07 season following the worst two year stretch Wake had seen since Staak?
 
Much of basketball recruiting, particularly to a school like Wake is at least a two year process from identification of prospect to freshman student athlete showing up on campus. 4 guys planned to be freshmen in Sep 2018 signed letters of Intent in November 2017, 10 months before they will start their freshman season at Wake. There was a lot of legwork in identifying who those guys would be that happened for over a year before they signed.

Just look at the recruiting threads now. Looking at 2019 and 2020 kids.

Wake lost 3 of their top 5 players after last season. Only one was a certainty to be gone. One of the others who departed was a near certainty to return, until he didn't, late in the summer. His spot is the real problem area on this team. Dinos averaged 10 and 6 for the season. This year, TT has had only three games with 5 and 5 or better. Sarr is still a work in progress and mostly the backup C.
 
CharlotteDeac1 said:
I will never understand three things:

1: how people can just go full revisionist history mode and assume things that should not be assumed.

2. How people give DM no credit for Collins. "Rode John Collins" get that BS outta here. They both worked hard to get him where he is and Danny designed a game plan to maximize his effect on offense and it got us to the tournament.

3. "Bz didn't have Collins on his team" ??? What?? So it's a negative for Manning that he recruited and developed Collins? Christ guys I get you don't like him as a coach but some of this stuff is just ridiculous.
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There is no excuse for this shitshow. DM simply cannot coach. He is not head coach material. He has shown zero ability to adjust during the games, his rotations are perplexing, and he has the type of personality that is not conducive to selling a program to the fans. The entire team acts like its miserable.

Blaming this on Wellman is not appropriate either. DM seemed like a good hire. Background, buzz, etc. But HEAD coaching is different in the ACC and DM is a failure. I wish it were different but it is not. The frustration will only get worse as the players get better.

DM doesn't need this either. I'm hoping he jumps to the NBA so everybody can save face and we can get a coach that can succeed. Defending the play of this team is an exercise in mental head in the sand. This program is an absolute mess, and Hoard isn't going to fix it.
 
RChildress107 said:
There were people on here that still thought he should get another year regardless.
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surely there were extremely few such people

I did not belong to this forum but I saw the billboard

RChildress107 said:
88-90 was worse, but point taken. Should Skip have been fired after the 07 season following the worst two year stretch Wake had seen since Staak?
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I meant to exclude the Staak years

Skip had flaws, but no, he shouldn't have been fired

he finished first in the ACC by two games; he got to the Sweet 16; he re-energized the program; he had built up a reservoir of goodwill
 
RChildress107 said:
I certainly have higher expectations for Wake Forest Basketball than anything we’ve seen the last 8 years, including last year. I have even higher hopes. I did not and won’t praise this team. They’ve been bad and have underachieved, both are troubling.

That said, credit and blame should be placed where they are due. 4 years ago, if [Redacted] had put a top 100 team on the floor there are many on here who would have accepted that and called for him to have another year. That most are no longer doing so is a sign that expectations have risen. Manning gets credit for that. He also gets credit for taking over a decimated program and getting it to the tourney in three years on the back of a 3* recruit. In the same vein, he gets the full blame for the team’s performance this year, at least to the extent it has failed to reach its potential (which is probably a borderline top 50 team).
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I admit saying he "rode collins" probably wasn't the best word choice, he absolutely has helped Collins and Moore develop but that just isnt enough. To make the damn play in game one time in 4 years (and for that team to have the most efficient player in the country) is not a good track record as far as wins and losses go. And at the end of the day, wins and losses are what we judge by in sports and in coaches. I'm in the camp to give Danny next year but if the team does not have a dramatically different feel than this year and make the tournament then he has to go. Recruiting is great and all but if those recruiting efforts produce anything resembling what I've watched this year than what a damn waste of time.
 
CharlotteDeac1 said:
I will never understand three things:

1: how people can just go full revisionist history mode and assume things that should not be assumed.

2. How people give DM no credit for Collins. "Rode John Collins" get that BS outta here. They both worked hard to get him where he is and Danny designed a game plan to maximize his effect on offense and it got us to the tournament.

3. "Bz didn't have Collins on his team" ??? What?? So it's a negative for Manning that he recruited and developed Collins? Christ guys I get you don't like him as a coach but some of this stuff is just ridiculous.
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No you dingbat...Bz didn’t have a stud like Collins for two years and until last night had the same number of wins as DM. That is putrid performance on DM’s part over his tenure here, resulting in the not so hot take that Manning is basically a terrible coach. Clear enough?
 
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RChildress107 said:
88-90 was worse, but point taken. Should Skip have been fired after the 07 season following the worst two year stretch Wake had seen since Staak?
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Not sure the implication of the question, but comparing Manning to Skip is laughably ludicrous. Skip had an established level of success at X, took over a stagnant Wake program and returned it to relevancy immediately, all before Chris Paul set foot on campus.

Manning had two mediocre years at Tulsa, took over an admittedly bare cupboard, and parlayed that opportunity into three years of embarrassment with a play-in game appearance mixed in.

Skip had his deficiencies for sure, particularly on the defensive end, but Manning can't coach his way out of a paper bag. If there's a way those post-Paul teams could play this year's squad, the smart money would be on the former.
 
deacfan123 said:
I admit saying he "rode collins" probably wasn't the best word choice, he absolutely has helped Collins and Moore develop but that just isnt enough. To make the damn play in game one time in 4 years (and for that team to have the most efficient player in the country) is not a good track record as far as wins and losses go. And at the end of the day, wins and losses are what we judge by in sports and in coaches. I'm in the camp to give Danny next year but if the team does not have a dramatically different feel than this year and make the tournament then he has to go. Recruiting is great and all but if those recruiting efforts produce anything resembling what I've watched this year than what a damn waste of time.
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Good post and reasonable expectations barring any unexpected loss of players
 
diverdeac said:
Blaming this on Wellman is not appropriate either. DM seemed like a good hire. Background, buzz, etc.
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Have to disagree here. Wellman was 100% "Swinging for the Fences" with the post [redacted] hire. He hired DM. Regardless of what DM does, this is on Wellman. He could (and should) have looked elsewhere. It was during the announcement of DM that I realized WF Basketball would never be the same again and I packed up all my Deacon gear. I almost shipped it to hatch with a check for $0.01 as well! Until #wellmanout is gone, the program will never reach the heights some of us are used too.
 
On Buzz. His last team was not bad, but it was clear that he was NOT going to be the answer so time to move on. If Moto Cav, Mitchell and Issac were in Deac unis then things might not have been as much of a disaster, but DM couldn't or didn't want to keep them (Haas Was gone already).

But in my view DM is the same as Buzz. He is going to put better players on the floor, but he is NOT the answer. The mojo of this team has to change on a dime here NOW for anything positive to carry into next year. There is no excuse for the start of the year or the blown games NONE. It is one thing to teach kids post moves, and prepare them for the next level. It is another to manage a successful program overall.
 
diverdeac said:
There is no excuse for this shitshow. DM simply cannot coach. He is not head coach material. He has shown zero ability to adjust during the games, his rotations are perplexing, and he has the type of personality that is not conducive to selling a program to the fans. The entire team acts like its miserable.

Blaming this on Wellman is not appropriate either. DM seemed like a good hire. Background, buzz, etc. But HEAD coaching is different in the ACC and DM is a failure. I wish it were different but it is not. The frustration will only get worse as the players get better.

DM doesn't need this either. I'm hoping he jumps to the NBA so everybody can save face and we can get a coach that can succeed. Defending the play of this team is an exercise in mental head in the sand. This program is an absolute mess, and Hoard isn't going to fix it.
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This is beginning to sound like a broken record,

Did FSU forget how to shoot threes in the second half? They made 6 of 14 in the first half and zero (0) of 7 in the second half. Is it possible that Wake made some defensive adjustments at halftime to limit the shots and make them more difficult?
 
Most of the newcomer Danny defenders are probably too young to remember the Les Robinson invitational, which was the 8/9 play-in game of the old (and true and correct) ACC tournament.

When does Tuesday of the new (bastardized) ACCT become the Danny Manning Invitational? This will be year four.
 
Stormfury said:
Have to disagree here. Wellman was 100% "Swinging for the Fences" with the post [redacted] hire. He hired DM. Regardless of what DM does, this is on Wellman. He could (and should) have looked elsewhere. It was during the announcement of DM that I realized WF Basketball would never be the same again and I packed up all my Deacon gear. I almost shipped it to hatch with a check for $0.01 as well! Until #wellmanout is gone, the program will never reach the heights some of us are used too.
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Wellman clearly has ultimate responsibility, but hiring DM was not an outrageous decision as was hiring Buzz and the initial mess.
 
Deaconblue said:
This is beginning to sound like a broken record,

Did FSU forget how to shoot threes in the second half? They made 6 of 14 in the first half and zero (0) of 7 in the second half. Is it possible that Wake made some defensive adjustments at halftime to limit the shots and make them more difficult?
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no
 
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