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Danny Manning Credibility Watch

Not a defense necessarily of canning Dino, but we did play like complete and utter unwiped nasty ass in that Cleveland steamer game
 
DeaconSig said:
FWIW, I was DinoGottaGo and am ManningOut. I remember being happy and excited with the idea that Wellman (a guy who had a sterling reputation until 2010) would not have gotten rid of Gaudio without having somebody ready to go. And the only sensible target was Stevens.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
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I remember well those initial weeks where we all tried to convince ourselves that Wellman had hired the ultimate diamond in the rough.
 
RJKarl said:
No coach alive could make Key, Thompson or Wilbekin into even mediocre defenders.

You could hide one of them, but not all of them.

In the scheme of things, very few knockdown shooters and scorers like Key are also decent defenders. He can help the team if we have other guys who can play D around him.
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this is wrong.
 
Teague was the straw that stirred the drink. He gave us an outside threat that opened up the lane. He played poorly at the end of the season for whatever reason.
 
RacerDeac said:
We're all in pretty universal agreement that the timing of Dino's firing was poor, right? Then why are some of you thinking that it will play better if we just stretch this out, let Manning have a little bit of success but never get over the hump, and then fire him? You fire on the back end of an awful season. That's now. The last thing we need is a couple years of bubble teams that make it harder to fire Manning even though it remains obvious that Manning's ceiling is well below Skip/Odom. If he sticks around, fan apathy will continue to grow. The nice shiny new basketball center loses it's new car smell. We'll transition to a new AD, who will come in and be hesitant to upset the apple cart right from the start. Suddenly we're looking at another 3-5 years of wondering in the basketball wilderness.

The time is now. The smart people in the room who control the purse strings need to step up, let Wellman know that they appreciate what he's done, but that he's on the way out, and a consulting firm will handle the hire. You'd think the dude would be begging for someone to save his legacy at this point anyway. We pay up, hire a good coach, have a good recruiting class on the way in, and the new coach hits the ground running with a shiny new facility to show off to recruits. We take the next 3-4 years to climb back to the top tier of the ACC and then we're poised to pounce when K/Roy/Jim start retiring.
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Y’all are making a ton of assumptions about what Manning will do with adequate ACC level talent. I know he can’t coach a team up without adequate ACC level talent, but that’s not a skill I particularly care about. His most talented team so far was less talented than any team Skip/Dino had except maybe 06-07 and the results were pretty good.

If Wellman retired tomorrow and we immediately put in a competent AD I would expect them to give Manning another year with the explicit expectation of Top __ seed or Round of ___. We aren’t in a worse position this time next year if Manning sucks again next year.

At least we had a chance to see what Dino and [Redacted] could do with talent. Manning has spent 4 years building up the talent base with one misstep (2016 class), I’d like to see what he can do with it.
 
daaberry said:
From the sample sizes you've been provided, would you say definitively that Danny Manning is a better head coach than Dino Gaudio?
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As RJ points out (kind of) the sample sizes are too dissimilar. (About the only thing he’s gotten right the past few pages). Comparing 16-17 to 07-08 (the closest teams talent wise) would seem to give Manning the slight edge. We never got a chance to see Dino coach mediocre talent.
 
RJ, please expand more upon your intimate knowledge (from 2500 miles away) of how Wellman has "botched" the Brad Stevens and Shaka Smart hires. Thanks in advance.
 
ChrisL68 said:
And we went 24-7. And won 20 games the next year with only two.
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The Dino hate is absurd. Which kind of proves the Manning hate is absurd. 16-17 team was less talented than the 09-10 team. The results were fairly similar.

Manning gets a D as a coach when coaching bottom half of the ACC talent. But I don’t want a coach who can coach bottom half of the ACC talent. I don’t want a coach who puts bottom half of the ACC talent on the floor.

“but Manning’s responsible for the talent!!!!” True. So let’s evaluate him on the talent he has brought into the program:

2014: on paper: C+, actual: B
2015: on paper: B, actual: A
2016: on paper: C-, actual: D
2017: on paper: B, actual: incomplete
2018: on paper: A-,

2014 is factoring in time frame he was working with. As is 2015 to a much smaller extent.

The 2016 class is on him, and it’s killing him this year, but in his one season with close to good enough talent he exceeded expectations.
 
RChildress107 said:
Y’all are making a ton of assumptions about what Manning will do with adequate ACC level talent. I know he can’t coach a team up without adequate ACC level talent, but that’s not a skill I particularly care about. His most talented team so far was less talented than any team Skip/Dino had except maybe 06-07 and the results were pretty good.

If Wellman retired tomorrow and we immediately put in a competent AD I would expect them to give Manning another year with the explicit expectation of Top __ seed or Round of ___. We aren’t in a worse position this time next year if Manning sucks again next year.

At least we had a chance to see what Dino and [name redacted] could do with talent. Manning has spent 4 years building up the talent base with one misstep (2016 class), I’d like to see what he can do with it.
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I'm not sure I understand the theory that a coach is better when he has more talented teams than when he has less. Sure, talent will result in better results regardless of a coach's ability, but that doesn't mean the coach is better. The coach is still the coach. Why would you assume he's magically a better coach with more talent than he is with less?
 
Ayo said:
Our fringe 5-star has played like a high-end 3-star this year, so yeah, I have no clue how much to expect from Hoard next year.
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I feel pretty good about our future if we keep recruiting high end 4 stars and fringe 5 stars. Some don’t work out (see J.T. Terrell and Ari Stewart) and some do (Teague, Johnson). The only thing close to a sure thing in high school recruiting is a top 10 player, but on average the rankings correspond well with production.
 
I don’t feel pretty good that Manning will “keep recruiting” that level of player.
 
RacerDeac said:
I'm not sure I understand the theory that a coach is better when he has more talented teams than when he has less. Sure, talent will result in better results regardless of a coach's ability, but that doesn't mean the coach is better. The coach is still the coach. Why would you assume he's magically a better coach with more talent than he is with less?
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I think some coaches have the ability to get teach/manage/motivate high talented players but that ability doesn’t translate to less talented players. I’m confident Tony Bennett could coach the worst players in the 12 year old YMCA league to a championship. Most college coaches, even good ones, couldn’t.
 
Ari Stewart would have been a perfect fit on the '17 - '18 roster as he didn't play a lick of defense and had an over-inflated opinion of his basketball talent.
 
PhDeac said:
I don’t feel pretty good that Manning will “keep recruiting” that level of player.
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Agree. We need a 4* PG like nobody's business and the best guards Manning has recruited in his tenure are Crawford and Childress.
 
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