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Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

sailordeac said:
Numbers, these arguments are really weak. Actually, children are a plus benefit for society. In fact, they are so important that society literally cannot do without them. A woman's right to greater convenience trumps the right to life of another, in this case, specifically her child? What are you saying? You can't seriously mean that anyone's convenience tops another person's right to exist? You can't be serious.

Ask yourself this: what child, no matter what their circumstances, would prefer to have been aborted rather than live?
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I guess the late capitalist mode of production does require an influx of baby-powered batteries to keep the gears turning.
 
I'm just pointing out that most abortions occur because if they're born there are aggravating factors which are going to be detrimental for society. I mentioned a few posts ago that these are either severe medical costs or the woman is not prepared to be a mother which is going to impose high costs on society as well (more likely to be financially unstable, burden taxpayers with welfare, etc.). That, coupled with my belief that a woman has a right to choose what to do with her body while the fetus isn't viable, to me makes it a good policy decision to permit legal abortion.

It also doesn't even get into the fact that abortions are going to happen regardless of if they're legal or not and I'd prefer that abortions be regulated by government rather than just not at all.

So yes, I'm serious. I don't see a distinction between an abortion at 10 weeks and using birth control or plan B. The fetus can't live at 10 weeks and the only argument is that it will eventually become human which is also true of using plan B or birth control except that it isn't a 100% chance the plan B or birth control (in that instance) would prevent a few cells from turning into a human. It's almost certain though that if you use birth control over time you have prevented cells from gathering to form a future person so you've essentially done the same thing IMO. However if your distinguishing line is going to be the soul exists or it could become a fetus then it seems like you would also be against birth control at large.
 
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Strickland33 said:
lol, quit being such a dunce cap

How do you think the collective "we" determined the parameters of morality in the first place?
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I get the part where the defenders of this abhorrent practice would rather talk about anything but the specifics. Hell, numbers just made an economic argument that would make the opponents of abolition in the first half of the Nineteenth Century blush. I mean, you've got some pretty bad facts when that's where you end up.
 
PhDeac said:
I've heard that women who graduate from high school and have children after marriage are more likely to be successful. That's a similar pro-abortion argument to what numbers is saying.
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First sentence is true.
Second sentence is most certainly false.
 
jhmd2000 said:
If abortion is on its own a, ahem, morally viable idea, one wouldn't have to water down its merits by comparing it to other ills. I wonder if we should draw some lessons from the fact that there aren't better arguments in favor of it than what other people think about the Iraq War, counterpoverty measures, capital punishment and religion.
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not your best work, day-drinking today?

I'm not interested in arguing 'in favor' of abortion or any other forms of homicide. They are all abhorrent. Nor am I suggesting abortion is 'morally viable' but I dig the pun. I don't really care about classifying any homicides as moral or right. I'm not really hung up on morality, that's your world.

Comparing the homicides I tolerate and the ones you tolerate is the crux of the discussion, though. Hell I gave you your 'conception is the beginning of life/personhood/humanness' IDGAF. It only bolsters my position.

You condone killing of innocents - born and unborn- in the form of missiles fired at them for living in an area that a dangerous and unreasonable leader reigns. OK, let's compare this to a woman having an abortion. You and Wrangor believe that every possible effort short of her own death should be made by her to preserve the baby's life and deliver it. OK. Do you hold your country and leaders to the same standard when killing innocent babies in foreign lands? If you supported the Iraq war, then the answer is a resounding 'no.' You expect that mother to surrender everything she has for that baby, short of her own life. Do you expect the United States to do this for the lives of 10s of thousands of innocent people in Iraq? If you supported the Iraq war, the answer is a resounding 'no.'

So you support the killing of innocents for your reasons, and I support the killing of innocents for my reasons. We are all immoral fucks. That is my point. I think my reasons are less shitty, and you think yours are less shitty. But you and Wrangor aren't fooling anyone with your claims of morality. Come on now..
 
jhmd2000 said:
I know you miss the good old days of the Hussein Regime (Iraq's, not ours), but it seems to me that your analysis is lacking a few important facts. Nonetheless, genuine respect for calling it like it is and not making up some smokescreen about abortion not being a form of homicide.
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Your choices are:

1) An Iraq today with Sadaam Hussein
2) US Troops still in Iraq by the tens of thousands
3) ISIS controlling a large swath of land in Iraq



Which one is the worst choice in your opinion? Which is the best choice? And why?


Thanks!
 
deacvision7 said:
Your choices are:

1) An Iraq today with Sadaam Hussein
2) US Troops still in Iraq by the tens of thousands
3) ISIS controlling a large swath of land in Iraq



Which one is the worst choice in your opinion? Which is the best choice? And why?


Thanks!
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What is this thread about, again? I forget. Oh yes, you all were offering a spirited defense of the practice of siphoning the internal organs of living humans in gestation out and throwing them away in the trash can, if we can't auction them off for parts. I can't imagine why you'd want to derail...
 
jhmd2000 said:
I get the part where the defenders of this abhorrent practice would rather talk about anything but the specifics. Hell, numbers just made an economic argument that would make the opponents of abolition in the first half of the Nineteenth Century blush. I mean, you've got some pretty bad facts when that's where you end up.
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So are you in favor or against birth control? Where do you personally draw the line? I know it's not in your custom but debate the issues not the source.
 
And just to clarify I don't view the killing of a fetus or a few cells, or anything before viability to be homicide just so we can avoid the strawman of "you're in favor of homicide when doing a cost benefit analysis?!?!"
 
Wrangor said:
How many times are we going to have these false equivalencies? You don't see the difference between punishment for a heinous crime (such as raping and killing a teenage girl) and an unprotected child having their life taken from them? Seriously Clark? I am not even going to attempt to explain the difference. If you can't see that I can't help you brother.
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You are making a terrible conclusion that all people sentenced to death are actually guilty of the crime in question. Some of them are innocent. We have killed innocent people for crimes they did not commit.
 
Wrangor said:
That doesn't make the punishment wrong, that makes the implementation wrong. Big difference.
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No, it makes the policy wrong. A policy that you apparently support. Like how abortion is a policy.
 
Wrangor said:
I personally wouldn't see them as any different. Conception is conception in my book. That is why when people post things about contraception, I usually hedge my answer if I am not familiar with the particular form of defense. There are some that merely prevent the already fertilized egg from attaching (no different than abortion in my book) and there are some that actually prevent conception. Came to this realization a few years back. Really caused me to asses my POV. I had never really considered that before...just plain naivety on my part.
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So you think life begins at conception?
 
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