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Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

I wouldn't normally consider celibacy to be a liberal viewpoint since it's generally based upon doctrines established as the status quo over the past 2,000 years but there are probably instances where it could be liberal (although I don't know enough about the Anabaptists and departures from the religious norms at those times to really know if celibacy in those cases was viewed as a liberal stance broadly by society).

Polygamy is probably a good example although I wouldn't be surprised if in 500 years polygamy has been somewhat more normalized. Good points on semantics between "liberal" and "conservative" positions. I was thinking more recent American history and so your examples definitely make it a more difficult distinction. With recent history, the social divide between a "liberal" and "conservative" position has been relatively easy to distinguish since the "liberal" side is generally correlated with expanding individual rights and the "conservative" side is generally correlated with restricting individual rights.

By those definitions though within certain segments of the population (like religious sects) the expansion of rights for celibacy broadly beyond the religious doctrine would certainly be liberal within that group, but not really a socially liberal idea at broad when applied to the rest of society.

Wait, what? So the liberal side is to expand my right to choose my own healthcare or, heaven forbid, keep a prior plan that I was happy with? Or expand my right to own guns? Or, wait for it, hire (or not hire) who I want to hire (or not hire) for my business? Or expanding the right of an individual to keep more of his own money as opposed to taking it via taxes to redistribute?
 
I wouldn't normally consider celibacy to be a liberal viewpoint since it's generally based upon doctrines established as the status quo over the past 2,000 years but there are probably instances where it could be liberal (although I don't know enough about the Anabaptists and departures from the religious norms at those times to really know if celibacy in those cases was viewed as a liberal stance broadly by society).

Polygamy is probably a good example although I wouldn't be surprised if in 500 years polygamy has been somewhat more normalized. Good points on semantics between "liberal" and "conservative" positions. I was thinking more recent American history and so your examples definitely make it a more difficult distinction. With recent history, the social divide between a "liberal" and "conservative" position has been relatively easy to distinguish since the "liberal" side is generally correlated with expanding individual rights and the "conservative" side is generally correlated with restricting individual rights.

By those definitions though within certain segments of the population (like religious sects) the expansion of rights for celibacy broadly beyond the religious doctrine would certainly be liberal within that group, but not really a socially liberal idea at broad when applied to the rest of society.

communism
 
I didn't say that the liberal position is undefeated, I said I can't personally think of an example of where the socially conservative view has prevailed in the long run as being what was generally accepted as the "better" position by society when looking back.

I still can't think of one. It doesn't mean they don't exist, it means I'm legitimately asking for guidance or an answer and every single post you've made on the topic JHMD has been nearly entirely unresponsive.

Again I cringe to think about opposing attorneys having to sort through your responses to interrogatories or your answers to pleadings.

communism
 
He's not saying that he doesn't see your argument about abortion (although he may not - you haven't really expanded on your own beliefs at all), I believe he's saying that you haven't made a responsive argument to the original question so you couldn't possibly have invalidated the point.

I did, you just don't want to acknowledge the failure of the Welfare State. 70% of children in one community are born into your blind spot. We get it.
 
Wait, what? So the liberal side is to expand my right to choose my own healthcare or, heaven forbid, keep a prior plan that I was happy with? Or expand my right to own guns? Or, wait for it, hire (or not hire) who I want to hire (or not hire) for my business? Or expanding the right of an individual to keep more of his own money as opposed to taking it via taxes to redistribute?

If it had to be boiled down to liberal or conservative for ACA I would definitely say that the ACA is liberal since it broadly provides access to health care to most of the population whereas the opposition is to not to expand health care to include everyone. From an individual perspective I guess you could argue that it's restrictive to you while being less restrictive to society as a whole. Beyond the ACA and just within health care in general, the liberal position would probably be health care for everyone as a basic human right whereas the conservative position is slightly more nebulous, likely not including health care as a basic human right (unless the view is that it's a basic human right to have it but not for the government to provide it - which makes sense I guess).

Communism is an interesting one. I would chalk that up to the hybrid of fiscal and social failures rather than a predominantly socially liberal failure, but that may be me trying to pigeonhole #undefeated.
 
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What has caused welfare to fail?

Likely, it has something to do with a lack of social mobility from the lower to the middle or out of the middle class, whether that's access to equal education (from early childhood through higher ed), unequal housing practices, regressive tax policy...you know...conservative ideas.

you mean like that capital loves the welfare state because it subsidizes the American poor while they go and find slave labor overseas and keep domestic wages low? nah can't be, its the LIBERALS with their mamby pamby giveaways...
 
nothing would be finer than to drop welfare/food stamps/etc altogether and watch the bankers and billionaire class shit their breeches as the American poor and working classes come for their fair wage for a fair days work. hilarious
 
What has caused welfare to fail?

Likely, it has something to do with a lack of social mobility from the lower to the middle or out of the middle class, whether that's access to equal education (from early childhood through higher ed), unequal housing practices, regressive tax policy...you know...conservative ideas.

Or, simply that stupid often breeds stupid.
 
Thinking about my posts earlier it's probably a case of a somewhat false dichotomy between "liberal" and "conservative." For linguistics sakes I probably should have clarified that relative to multiple positions, the one generally covering more liberal social positions seems to be favored by future societies.

That was bad initial phrasing on my part.
 
If stupid breeds stupid then what is yanking on the bootstraps going to do for kids of stupid people? Seems like it would be in vain since they're still stupid.
 
nothing would be finer than to drop welfare/food stamps/etc altogether and watch the bankers and billionaire class shit their breeches as the American poor and working classes come for their fair wage for a fair days work. hilarious

You really believe that silly stuff don't you?
 
If stupid breeds stupid then what is yanking on the bootstraps going to do for kids of stupid people? Seems like it would be in vain since they're still stupid.

Somewhat, though stupid people can still be relatively successful. Aren't you and Townie the king atheists? If you believe in science over God, then I assume you believe in genetics and evolution, correct? So do genetics and evolution apply to everything but intelligence? Or is this another quandary where political correctness conflicts with another core belief, so PC wins out in the ultimate desire not to offend anyone?
 
Nature v. nurture bro.

Drink for 2&2 mentioning "political correctness."

Again for the "PC" shortening reference later in the sentence.
 
The concept of genetics, evolution, and natural selection are all but dead in modern human society. Evolution and advancement will take place through science.
 
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