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Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
What doctors? The article you posted linked to (1) some twitter accounts saying they couldn't get lupus medicine, which doesn't make any sense when none of these laws are really even active yet, and (2) a Dr who had a patient that she was concerned about a delay but whose surgery occurred on time. Where is the doctor who withheld care?



That does not make any sense. If the doctor believes the procedure is medically appropriate, then the procedure is allowed. If the doctor does not perform the procedure then did he/she really believe it was medically allowed? The failure to perform the procedure rests with the doctor's opinion of its necessity, not the law. Doctors do shit all the time that generally prompts the need for a second opinion. If the abortion is being performed solely because the life of the mother is in jeopardy such that it is truly a life or death decision, one would think that a second opinion would be warranted to confirm that diagnosis if the first doctor is concerned about the gray area, and the confirming second opinion would be the necessary protection under the law (which the first doctor should want anyway if the mother is terminating solely for her own health). If the first doctor is fully convinced that it is such an emergency that no second opinion is warranted, then the his/her actions are clearly justified under the law. Unless the doctor fucks up about the severity of the situation, which is a risk present in all serious medical diagnosis and the doctor should presumably want to hedge against in all scenarios not limited to abortions.

I'm fully pro-choice, but Scooter is the only one on here looking at this rationally in terms of the actual laws as written. The rest of you are so far off in the margins that it undermines the primary position.
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Medically appropriate is not the same as a medical emergency. The hypothetical was a d&c after a miscarriage, which would be completely medically appropriate, but in most cases, not an emergency.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
What doctors? The article you posted linked to (1) some twitter accounts saying they couldn't get lupus medicine, which doesn't make any sense when none of these laws are really even active yet, and (2) a Dr who had a patient that she was concerned about a delay but whose surgery occurred on time. Where is the doctor who withheld care?



That does not make any sense. If the doctor believes the procedure is medically appropriate, then the procedure is allowed. If the doctor does not perform the procedure then did he/she really believe it was medically allowed? The failure to perform the procedure rests with the doctor's opinion of its necessity, not the law. Doctors do shit all the time that generally prompts the need for a second opinion. If the abortion is being performed solely because the life of the mother is in jeopardy such that it is truly a life or death decision, one would think that a second opinion would be warranted to confirm that diagnosis if the first doctor is concerned about the gray area, and the confirming second opinion would be the necessary protection under the law (which the first doctor should want anyway if the mother is terminating solely for her own health). If the first doctor is fully convinced that it is such an emergency that no second opinion is warranted, then the his/her actions are clearly justified under the law. Unless the doctor fucks up about the severity of the situation, which is a risk present in all serious medical diagnosis and the doctor should presumably want to hedge against in all scenarios not limited to abortions.

I'm fully pro-choice, but Scooter is the only one on here looking at this rationally in terms of the actual laws as written. The rest of you are so far off in the margins that it undermines the primary position.
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Again, y’all are blaming the doctors and the pharmacists who are following the advice (or probably directives) from their hospital administrators or corporate employers and their lawyers, rather than blaming the politicians for writing bad laws. These laws are likely intentionally written to create confusion and uncertainty so that the drs will exhibit extreme caution and not perform these procedures unless the woman is obviously drawing her last breath. These things are literally already happening regardless of your close reading of the laws. Maybe in a year or two things will settle down and the docs will clearly understand the space they have to make decisions and treat patients, but women will die in the meantime.
 
Wakelaw2006 said:
Medically appropriate is not the same as a medical emergency. The hypothetical was a d&c after a miscarriage, which would be completely medically appropriate, but in most cases, not an emergency.
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That is in the doctor's opinion. If he/she thinks that preventing the psychological trauma of carrying around the dead fetus for a material amount of time constitutes a worthwhile emergency, then bombs away. Doctors determining and defining the standard of care with regard to malpractice isn't something new, it happens all the time whenever the law and medicine intersect.
 
birdman said:
Again, y’all are blaming the doctors and the pharmacists who are following the advice (or probably directives) from their hospital administrators or corporate employers and their lawyers, rather than blaming the politicians for writing bad laws. These laws are likely intentionally written to create confusion and uncertainty so that the drs will exhibit extreme caution and not perform these procedures unless the woman is obviously drawing her last breath. These things are literally already happening regardless of your close reading of the laws. Maybe in a year or two things will settle down and the docs will clearly understand the space they have to make decisions and treat patients, but women will die in the meantime.
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Again, what doctors and pharmacists? The only thing I've seen are random twitter accounts, websites, and this board freaking out about situations they suspect might happen. Where are the women who have died as their doctor stood there refusing emergency care in their clear life or death situation?
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Again, what doctors and pharmacists? The only thing I've seen are random twitter accounts, websites, and this board freaking out about situations they suspect might happen. Where are the women who have died as their doctor stood there refusing emergency care in their clear life or death situation?
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There are plenty of articles out there in reputable new sources quoting doctors and medical professionals about their fears about how this law will affect their freedom to treat their patients. Your skepticism of twitter and Instagram posts is warranted, but news outlets cannot publish private medical information without permission of the patient so your not going to get a WaPo article with all the juicy details. Just listen to the medical professionals about how they read they law or about how hospital administrators are limiting their options.
 
It's so cute when people assume our current republican party gives a shit about anything other than remaining in power to get that cash. We've got decades of evidence.
 
deaconson said:
It's so cute when people assume our current republican party gives a shit about anything other than remaining in power to get that cash. We've got decades of evidence.
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This kind of ridiculous take is why we can't have a civil discussion. Do you really think the democrats give two shits about anything other than remaining in power? We have just as many decades of evidence of that. In fact, this should be one thing we can all agree on - pretty much the only thing ANY of the politicians care about is staying in power.
 
Who do you think cares more about improving American’s lives: Joe Biden or Donald Trump?
 
That’s a both sides false equivalence that Republicans use to breed anti-government sentiment so people will elect anti-government Republicans into power. You can’t actually give examples of how you feel. You just feel it because you need to feel it to justify what you’ve been taught.

Read the history of the anti-abortion movement. It was cooked up to try to get Catholics on-board with anti-desegregation conservatives. There’s no real political or policy reason why an uncontroversial 7-2 decision by a Republican led court would be a rallying cause for conservatives. They made it an issue to gain power.
 
scooter84 said:
This kind of ridiculous take is why we can't have a civil discussion. Do you really think the democrats give two shits about anything other than remaining in power? We have just as many decades of evidence of that. In fact, this should be one thing we can all agree on - pretty much the only thing ANY of the politicians care about is staying in power.
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You're a fucking bosidesing moron. Fuck off.
 
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scooter84 said:
This kind of ridiculous take is why we can't have a civil discussion. Do you really think the democrats give two shits about anything other than remaining in power? We have just as many decades of evidence of that. In fact, this should be one thing we can all agree on - pretty much the only thing ANY of the politicians care about is staying in power.
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[sarcasm]Lol[/sarcasm]
 
If y'all are seriously under the impression that the democrats are some virtuous group of people just looking out for the best for all Americans and not focused at all on maintaining their positions of power and lining their own pockets, then I don't know how to have a logical discussion with you. I am under no such delusions about the republicans.
 
BeachBumDeac said:
Who do you think cares more about improving American’s lives: Joe Biden or Donald Trump?
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Biden 100000000% but he has zero interest in fixing the economic chasm that is actually causing most people’s daily trauma.

And that’s why this country is crumbling. We’re an economically center-right nation on the path to authoritarianism. Fascist Populist reactionists thrive in this environment.
 
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Nobody is willing to speak truth on this. All but a few people on the right thought this was settled for years. At no time, not even now could Dems get enough votes to codify abortion.
 
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