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Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

The real issue is whether or not we are aborting humans. We are aborting "potential humans" for sure, but there is a huge difference. If the fetus is not a human, then there is no great difference between abortion and surgery that removes a part of the body.

How do we know whether the fetus is a human being or not? To me and I think many it comes down to a religious or metaphysical question. I think for Wrangor and most Christians it would come down to whether or not the fetus has a soul. There are very logical religious arguments on both sides as to when a soul inhabits the fetus. To me the soundest argument against a soul being present at conception is that it cheapens the value of a soul as many spontaneous abortions occur naturally. To consider each of this as a lost soul would seem to be very inefficient and cheapen the soul in God's eyes. That would also bring up the question of whether God implants a dozen souls in petri dishes with artificial insemination. If you take the view that there is not necessarily a soul at conception, then that soul would have to enter the fetus at some point. It would appear obvious that we do not have conclusive evidence when the soul enters a fetus (if you believe in the concept of a soul), therefore it becomes a matter of belief or faith. I do not think we should make legislation on the basis of faith.

For you guys that are not believers in a deity or a soul, there still has to be some determinant as to what constitutes human life. Hopefully it is not just as simplistic as whether or not the baby has been born and thus sanctioned by the government as a human being.

I am done rambling. My personal view is that I do not know when a fetus becomes human and I would prefer to err on the side of caution and would make every attempt to avoid an abortion, but that is a personal decision. I do not think the government should be in the business of making decisions based on religious beliefs.
 
You are for abortion you said so on many a thread. The most important thing to do for society is to prevent single parent households.

"Hi, I'm Troy McClure. You might remember me from such films as 'My argument is illogical and immoral and i know it, so I'll just bizarrely attribute my awful position to you and hope nobody notices.'"
 
You might lose that. Haha. You would understand if you faced the majority on this board. Just look back on this thread. How many other people are supporting my position? JHMD visited and offered a quick hello, but it really wasn't anything more than poking the bear. When you take a minority position you end up responding to double digit posters and while it can be maintained for a while, it is pretty exhausting. I am not bowing out eternally, but have work to do today, so I will revisit tomorrow. This is the one issue that I just can't get over. On this I cannot bend. It is so clear to me what we are doing, and I can't understand how people can't see that.

So I sincerely apologize for my abruptness earlier. I don't apologize for my extreme stance relative to our current social makeup, but I can't let it get me so riled up. I just watched that video and it broke my heart to see the broken bodies of children being negotiated over as if they were a widget. I go from extreme sadness to rage pretty quick on this topic as you can tell.

C'mon man, they can tell. You're not any more perceptive than they are; they know what's going on. The problem is they bet heavily in the other direction for 30 years and pride and vanity aren't going to let them slink back across the bridge. [Insert dishonest argument about how stopping a beating human heart isn't a moral issue here].
 
There are a lot of self righteous dick holes in the world

If only those fetuses would pick themselves up by their bootstraps and defend themselves, then maybe these blowhard crusaders on the right would knock it off. Thanks a lot, babies lifeless-clumps-of-tissue-with-heartbeats-and-pain-sensations.
 
For you guys that are not believers in a deity or a soul, there still has to be some determinant as to what constitutes human life. Hopefully it is not just as simplistic as whether or not the baby has been born and thus sanctioned by the government as a human being.

I'm fine with a viability standard but I think with medical advances at some point there will need to be some sort of line drawn on "the fetus could survive but only if we use this $1 million machine to keep him alive for the next 8 weeks until he could reasonably survive on his own had he actually been born at that time" just as a financial issue.
 
Are there any posters here who support personhood amendments/laws? If life begins at conception how can a government record that accurately? Definitely in the viability camp and sincerely hope viability will get closer to conception as technology improves. If personhood amendments have failed in deeply conservative Mississippi and North Dakota, where are they ever going to pass?
 
Are there any posters here who support personhood amendments/laws? If life begins at conception how can a government record that accurately? Definitely in the viability camp and sincerely hope viability will get closer to conception as technology improves. If personhood amendments have failed in deeply conservative Mississippi and North Dakota, where are they ever going to pass?

I think we should count the unborn as 3/5's of a person. For that matter, I'm pretty sure that Justice Taney wanted slavery to be "safe, legal and rare."
 
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Pro life or pro choice, that video is not shocking, and is no smoking gun. Aborted fetal tissue is donated to research facilities. Those facilities reimburse the clinics for the associated costs.
 
It always shocks me the #density of educated people when it comes to abortion. I guess I shouldn't be shocked. One day we will look back on this period of history in absolute horror that we allowed the practice of abortion to occur. 50 million and counting. I think the realization that people are ok with ending a life that has no voice is finally starting to come to grips. Just didn't realize people were that depraved.

More like one day we will look back and wonder how we allowed the illogical religious beliefs of some to set the rules for our society. That's generally how history works, see: the Middle Ages
 
Abortion: When will we as a country wake up to the truth?

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Are there a lot of people out there clapping when a women goes into or leaves an abortion clinic? Best I can tell, the only people around are usually calling her a murderer.


As an aside, I used to drive by the one in CLT on my way to a friend's house. It was always fun to roll down the window and scream at those dirty hippies to go get a job.
 
Not really a woman's body/woman's choice issue:

when-you-smoke-your-baby-smokes.png


9079662187_a294f5a0ae.jpg
 
Not really a woman's body/woman's choice issue:

when-you-smoke-your-baby-smokes.png


9079662187_a294f5a0ae.jpg

If a woman smokes crack cocaine with an infant in gestation and the baby is born addicted to drugs, it was Her-body-her-choice. What don't you #denseheads get about the biology here?
 
If a woman smokes crack cocaine with an infant in gestation and the baby is born addicted to drugs, it was Her-body-her-choice. What don't you #denseheads get about the biology here?

No, it's not her-body, her-choice. It's illegal. Just like smoking crack while not being pregnant
 
No, it's not her-body, her-choice. It's illegal. Just like smoking crack while not being pregnant

Find: smoking crack cocaine
Replace: vodka

Find: drugs
Replace: booze

"her body", guys? I thought we were the ones who hated science...
 
I quoted red fonted scripture from the book that you have given your life to.

I'm challenging your religion, your misplaced beliefs and the righteous indignation that was oozing out of your original post.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

Coming late to the thread, I can't find a post in which Wrangor cited either scripture specifically or his religion in general as a basis for his position. All I've read is that he believes abortion is the taking of innocent life and therefore wrong. You can debate that if you wish, but you are the one introducing religion into the argument.
 
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