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Thread: Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

  1. #3261
    Quote Originally Posted by birdman View Post
    Yes, they are. And to be more specific, the Republican Party is that stupid, and itís not so much stupidity as it vindictive shittyness. This is the GOP that you support. They criminalized your daughterís medical care in 23 (or more) states.
    I am not going to believe that is the state of the law until I see it written down - or see it in action. I have never seen credible evidence that such is actually the law - only hypotheticals. If I learn of a state where that is actually the law I will write a letter to every lawmaker in that state - not that it would do a whit of good - but I would.
    And stop with the inflammatory, hyperbolic language - I do not believe that any lawmakers are saying, 'you know what, I am so pissed that Roe V. Wade has been the law for so long that I am going to make abortion so illegal that women have to walk around with dead babies in their bellies'. No one is passing these laws out of "vindictive shittyness" - no matter how much you want to portray them as monsters.

  2. #3262
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    Thereís a shocking lack of foresight in that post. Youíre saying you donít believe bad things that could happen can happen because you trust politicians not to be vindictive?

  3. #3263
    If only these laws that are on the books were available for me to read and develop an understanding of. I guess I'll just... wait for someone else to explain what's in them.

    These laws make all "abortions" illegal past certain subjective points in time. Many also have criminal or civil penalties for seeking out this critical form of health-care. You don't think republicans in Texas aren't vindictive? They are allowing vigilantes to turn in people that leave the state for health-care (in this case abortion services) to take a 10k bounty for turning them in for receiving legal procedures that occur in other states. But not vindictive. I guess.

  4. #3264
    I disagree with you
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    he does b/c he's a conservative white dude whose life is not affected by these laws in any way

  5. #3265
    watch The Janes on HBO if you want to see pro-life in action.


    *Hint - abortions don't stop you fuckshits
    Last edited by WakeandBake; 07-06-2022 at 05:56 PM.

  6. #3266
    Quote Originally Posted by scooter84 View Post
    If I learn of a state where that is actually the law I will write a letter to every lawmaker in that state - not that it would do a whit of good - but I would.
    No you wonít.

  7. #3267
    Hurricane Goddess wakegrrl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter84 View Post
    I am not going to believe that is the state of the law until I see it written down - or see it in action. I have never seen credible evidence that such is actually the law - only hypotheticals. If I learn of a state where that is actually the law I will write a letter to every lawmaker in that state - not that it would do a whit of good - but I would.
    And stop with the inflammatory, hyperbolic language - I do not believe that any lawmakers are saying, 'you know what, I am so pissed that Roe V. Wade has been the law for so long that I am going to make abortion so illegal that women have to walk around with dead babies in their bellies'. No one is passing these laws out of "vindictive shittyness" - no matter how much you want to portray them as monsters.
    Okay, Scooter, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you just lost it. I invite you to Google the Missouri law, the FL law, and the Texas trigger law, just to start. Texas did end up putting in a very vague provision for medical necessities or some such crap, but it's so vague that it's definitely prosecutable if you get the right (or wrong) DA. In the meantime, as I stated above, these laws are written to criminalize behavior by pregnant people. The lawmakers do not care about anything else (for the most part...I try to stay away from black/white dichotomies but it's getting increasingly difficult in this space). There are absolutely people passing these laws based on their strongly held religious belief. (That puts aside any question of whether they have the right to impose that on others - I'm strictly addressing their rationale.) But there are also people who are passing these laws to meet the requirements of the most hard-core religious right people strictly to get votes/appease the base/get revenge for the last 50 years of allowing abortion, and I would absolutely call that "vindictive shittyness."

    I remember you said your daughter had a miscarriage (for which all of you have my sympathy). If it was anything like mine, I had the choice of continuing to carry the fetus for days to weeks until it spontaneously miscarried (yes, that's the medical term) or I could have a D&C to clean out my uterus. The vast majority of these laws do not specifically allow that procedure, and by not allowing for it, enforcement will naturally err to the side of saying it's illegal.
    Last edited by wakegrrl; 07-06-2022 at 04:39 PM.

  8. #3268
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDeac View Post
    Thereís a shocking lack of foresight in that post. Youíre saying you donít believe bad things that could happen can happen because you trust politicians not to be vindictive?
    Not at all. I don't believe a lot of the stuff that people say just because they say it. Pro-abortion rights people say things like "women are going to die because they will be denied a D&C after a miscarriage" or "next they will outlaw contraception" - that alone doesn't make it true. Plus, I am an attorney - if you say something is the law, show it to me.

    I do have more faith in humanity than some of you do - humanity on both sides of the aisle. I don't think people on the left necessarily do the things they do or say the things they say because they are evil - it is because they are dumb or misguided or simply disagree with me. I try to abide by the saying that says don't ascribe to malice what can just as easily be explained by ignorance or mistake.

  9. #3269
    Quote Originally Posted by wakegrrl View Post
    Okay, Scooter, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you just lost it. I invite you to Google the Missouri law, the FL law, and the Texas trigger law, just to start. Texas did end up putting in a very vague provision for medical necessities or some such crap, but it's so vague that it's definitely prosecutable if you get the right (or wrong) DA. In the meantime, as I stated above, these laws are written to criminalize behavior by pregnant people. The lawmakers do not care about anything else (for the most part...I try to stay away from black/white dichotomies but it's getting increasingly difficult in this space). There are absolutely people passing these laws based on their strongly held religious belief. (That puts aside any question of whether they have the right to impose that on others - I'm strictly addressing their rationale.) But there are also people who are passing these laws to meet the requirements of the most hard-core religious right people strictly to get votes/appease the base/get revenge for the last 50 years of allowing abortion, and I would absolutely call that "vindictive shittyness."

    I remember you said your daughter had a miscarriage (for which all of you have my sympathy). If it was anything like mine, I had the choice of continuing to carry the fetus for days to weeks until it spontaneously miscarried (yes, that's the medical term) or I could have a D&C to clean out my uterus. The vast majority of these laws do not specifically allow that procedure, and by not allowing for it, enforcement will naturally err to the side of saying it's illegal.
    I will try to read them - I tried some quick google searching on this issue before but couldn't find anything concrete.

  10. #3270
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter84 View Post
    I try to abide by the saying that says don't ascribe to malice what can just as easily be explained by ignorance or mistake.
    I guarantee you the lack of explicit allowances for D&Cs, ectopic pregnancy removal procedures, rape and incest provisions, etc. is absolutely neither ignorance or mistake.

  11. #3271
    Also - a lot of states are not passing new laws, they are reverting to very old laws that were on the books before roe. Those laws passed in the 1800s or early 1900s are super vague when it comes to what is allowed because medical knowledge at the time was not nearly what it is now. And if something is not explicitly allowed, itíll only be done by doctors who are willing to risk their professional license. Which means it wonít be done in the vast majority of cases.

  12. #3272
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeachBumDeac View Post
    Also - a lot of states are not passing new laws, they are reverting to very old laws that were on the books before roe. Those laws passed in the 1800s or early 1900s are super vague when it comes to what is allowed because medical knowledge at the time was not nearly what it is now. And if something is not explicitly allowed, itíll only be done by doctors who are willing to risk their professional license. Which means it wonít be done in the vast majority of cases.
    medical knowledge is not rooted in our traditions

  13. #3273
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeachBumDeac View Post
    Also - a lot of states are not passing new laws, they are reverting to very old laws that were on the books before roe. Those laws passed in the 1800s or early 1900s are super vague when it comes to what is allowed because medical knowledge at the time was not nearly what it is now. And if something is not explicitly allowed, itíll only be done by doctors who are willing to risk their professional license. Which means it wonít be done in the vast majority of cases.
    Very good point.

  14. #3274
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter84 View Post
    Not at all. I don't believe a lot of the stuff that people say just because they say it. Pro-abortion rights people say things like "women are going to die because they will be denied a D&C after a miscarriage" or "next they will outlaw contraception" - that alone doesn't make it true. Plus, I am an attorney - if you say something is the law, show it to me.

    I do have more faith in humanity than some of you do - humanity on both sides of the aisle. I don't think people on the left necessarily do the things they do or say the things they say because they are evil - it is because they are dumb or misguided or simply disagree with me. I try to abide by the saying that says don't ascribe to malice what can just as easily be explained by ignorance or mistake.

    It's a lack of foresight to wait for what does happen instead of anticipate what might happen. How many lives are lost or impacted if you're wrong because your trust in politicians is misplaced? Anybody in charge of making rules and laws should have a robust conversation about the intended and possible unintended consequences of those changes. Also, what you are calling "hypotheticals" did happen before Roe and could happen again. They're real-life consequences.

    And I have to ask because I'm curious. What things do people on the left do and say that could be because they are evil that you think are ignorance or mistake?
    Last edited by PhDeac; 07-06-2022 at 05:02 PM.

  15. #3275
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/abortio...regnancy-risk/

    She said the overturning of Roe creates a complicated situation for doctors. Some state laws will only allow abortions when a pregnant person's life, not just their health, is in danger.

    "But how do you define that?" she said. And if a doctor misjudges what the state will allow, they could face legal action.

    "Either they're going to intervene early and face all of the consequences that I described Ö or they're going to wait to intervene and perhaps lose a patient, meaning that she will die," King said.
    How about some people who may die because their doctors wonít give them a medicine they need?

    https://qz.com/2185205/abortion-bans...and-lupus-too/

    Methotrexate, a drug on the World Health Organizationís list of essential medicines, has many applications. It is prescribed for the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis and psoriatic arthritis, and for autoimmune diseases such as lupus, psoriasis, and Crohnís disease. It is also used for several types of cancer, including breast cancer, leukemia, and lymphoma.

    It is also a drug that is used to treat ectopic pregnancies, or pregnancies that happen outside the uterus, typically in a fallopian tube. Ectopic pregnancies arenít viable, and put the motherís health at risk. The only treatment is abortion, which is why methotrexate is used: the medication is an abortifacient, causing the end of pregnancy in women who take it.

    Ö

    But it isnít just reproductive health at risk. Patients have reported being denied medications that could cause abortion, even if they arenít pregnant and need them for other conditions. The Lupus Foundation of America and the American College of Rheumatology both have confirmed reports of methotrexate being denied to women of childbearing age, and have made statements in support of continued access to the medication. ďPregnancy often complicates the management of women with rheumatic diseases and may threaten the life of the mother,Ē said the American College of Rheumatology in a statement published on their site.

    Many states now only allow abortions for medical emergencies, and doctors fear legal repercussions if they intervene too soon in cases of pregnancy complications, or if they prescribe medications that could harm a fetusóeven if the health of the mother, or her life, are in danger. Methotrexate is only one such medication. Drugs used in chemotherapy are often abortifacient or teratogenic (meaning they can cause malformations to the fetus, that are severe and incompatible with life), and could also be curtailed.

    In some cases, patients might be given fewer options to continue treatment for cancer, for instance having to take chemo drugs with more severe side effects because they have fewer effects on pregnancies, or potentially even denied treatment.
    You can bury your head in the sand and keep voting GOP with your both sides and quick google search bullshit. But you are supporting some real heinous shit.

  16. #3276
    Quote Originally Posted by scooter84 View Post
    Not at all. I don't believe a lot of the stuff that people say just because they say it. Pro-abortion rights people say things like "women are going to die because they will be denied a D&C after a miscarriage" or "next they will outlaw contraception" - that alone doesn't make it true. Plus, I am an attorney - if you say something is the law, show it to me.

    I do have more faith in humanity than some of you do - humanity on both sides of the aisle. I don't think people on the left necessarily do the things they do or say the things they say because they are evil - it is because they are dumb or misguided or simply disagree with me. I try to abide by the saying that says don't ascribe to malice what can just as easily be explained by ignorance or mistake.
    Ah ye ol' I come from a place of "I'm always right but I don't think k you are evil."

  17. #3277
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    Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by deaconson View Post
    Ah ye ol' I come from a place of "I'm always right but I don't think k you are evil."
    Which is an appropriate higher ground stance if the side youíre on is evil. Itís something you could see a pro-slavery person saying to an abolitionist.

  18. #3278
    Quote Originally Posted by scooter84 View Post
    I am not going to believe that is the state of the law until I see it written down - or see it in action. I have never seen credible evidence that such is actually the law - only hypotheticals. If I learn of a state where that is actually the law I will write a letter to every lawmaker in that state - not that it would do a whit of good - but I would.
    And stop with the inflammatory, hyperbolic language - I do not believe that any lawmakers are saying, 'you know what, I am so pissed that Roe V. Wade has been the law for so long that I am going to make abortion so illegal that women have to walk around with dead babies in their bellies'. No one is passing these laws out of "vindictive shittyness" - no matter how much you want to portray them as monsters.
    You believe a lot of stuff in the face of plenty of evidence to the contrary. Look up the laws or read some shit if you donít believe me. Donít just post on a sports message board ďNO WAI!Ē
    Birds are real.

  19. #3279
    It seems like a good time to remind everyone that there are women in prison now for having miscarriages. Generally in scenarios where the prosecutor argued that their behavior caused the miscarriage. There was a woman in Texas earlier this year that was indicted for "inducing an abortion," and charges were only dropped after a large outcry.

    That is before the overturn of Roe. Prosecutors will only get more aggressive with charges given new (or the reinstatement of old) laws criminalizing abortion.

  20. #3280
    Quote Originally Posted by avalon View Post
    It seems like a good time to remind everyone that there are women in prison now for having miscarriages. Generally in scenarios where the prosecutor argued that their behavior caused the miscarriage. There was a woman in Texas earlier this year that was indicted for "inducing an abortion," and charges were only dropped after a large outcry.

    That is before the overturn of Roe. Prosecutors will only get more aggressive with charges given new (or the reinstatement of old) laws criminalizing abortion.
    Scooter is skeptical!
    Birds are real.

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