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The Islamic Dilemma

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HowardDeanSux

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http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/1...r=0&referer=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/

Excellent article on the Islamic dilemma in the US.

"In this landscape of options, the clearest model for Islam’s transition to modernity might lie in American evangelicalism — like Islam a missionary faith, like Islam decentralized and intensely scripture-oriented, and like Islam a tradition that often assumes an organic link between the theological and political.

Of course American evangelicals are often particularly hostile to Islam — as they are to Mormonism, which also offers an interesting model for modernizing Muslims.

But this is less an irony than a form of recognition: An Islam that set aside the sword without abandoning its fervor would be working in the same mission territory, Western and global, where evangelicals and Mormons presently compete and clash.

But it has to set aside the sword."
 
HowardDeanSux said:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/1...r=0&referer=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/

Excellent article on the Islamic dilemma in the US.

"In this landscape of options, the clearest model for Islam’s transition to modernity might lie in American evangelicalism — like Islam a missionary faith, like Islam decentralized and intensely scripture-oriented, and like Islam a tradition that often assumes an organic link between the theological and political.

Of course American evangelicals are often particularly hostile to Islam — as they are to Mormonism, which also offers an interesting model for modernizing Muslims.

But this is less an irony than a form of recognition: An Islam that set aside the sword without abandoning its fervor would be working in the same mission territory, Western and global, where evangelicals and Mormons presently compete and clash.

But it has to set aside the sword."
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That article was awful. The "Islamic dilemma in the U.S." has nothing to do with Islam and a lot to do with the U.S. and it's distorted, selective, and hypocritical view of religion and religion's role in governance.

I also find it alarming that the author seems to think American evangelicals are particularly modern or even particularly adherent to a comprehensive literal reading of scripture.
 
Are you intentionally responding like a dolt? The Islamic dilemma in the US is about radical Islamic terrorism, plain and simple. The author attempts to explain how the problem has arisen and suggests a possible solution. As to the rest of your comments, you must have skipped the paragraph where the author references you.

"But it’s also true of the ideas of many secular liberal Westerners, who take a more benign view of Islam mostly because they assume that all religious ideas are arbitrary, that it doesn’t matter what Muhammad said or did because tomorrow’s Muslims can just reinterpret the Prophet’s life story and read the appropriate liberal values in."
 
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HowardDeanSux said:
Are you intentionally responding like a dolt? The Islamic dilemma in the US is about radical Islamic terrorism, plain and simple. The author attempts to explain how the problem has arisen and suggests a possible solution. As to the rest of your comments, you must have skipped the paragraph where the author references you.

"But it’s also true of the ideas of many secular liberal Westerners, who take a more benign view of Islam mostly because they assume that all religious ideas are arbitrary, that it doesn’t matter what Muhammad said or did because tomorrow’s Muslims can just reinterpret the Prophet’s life story and read the appropriate liberal values in."
Click to expand...

That doesn't describe me at all. I take a more benign view of Islam because it's generally not much of a threat to U.S. security and to the extent that it does pose a threat it's a threat we created by going over there and killing millions of muslims, not by Islam itself.

Islam's origin is no more violent than Judaism's (and by extension Christianity's). The vast majority of it's devout followers believe in a literal reading of the Quran and are non-violent.
 
We have a gun nut dilemma in this country, not an Islamic dilemma
 
HowardDeanSux said:
However, a large percentage of Muslims worldwide (roughly 1/3) believe in violent jihad. Can you identify the Islamic dilemma yet?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm
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That website seems legit. Even if true, that number is still smaller than the percentage of Americans who supported the War in Iraq, and likely smaller than the percentage of Americans that want to see America wage a war against the Middle East.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Islam has an American dilemma.
 
However, it is a worldwide problem and not just an American problem. The problem lies with radical Islam not the entire world (civilized and uncivilized). The dilemma is how to distinguish the "good Muslims" from the radical Islamists. The problem is easy to identify. The solution is much more elusive.
 
RChildress107 said:
That doesn't describe me at all. I take a more benign view of Islam because it's generally not much of a threat to U.S. security and to the extent that it does pose a threat it's a threat we created by going over there and killing millions of muslims, not by Islam itself.

Islam's origin is no more violent than Judaism's (and by extension Christianity's). The vast majority of it's devout followers believe in a literal reading of the Quran and are non-violent.
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You need to double check your source on the origins of Islam. Muhammad is the only spiritual leader of which I am aware that was also a conqueror. Judaism has some similar roots and may be the closest. Jesus, like him or not, was pretty much the polar opposite. Same for Buddhism, or Hinduism, etc. Many religions have been used to justify atrocities, but most have founders that were looking for a spiritual path that benefited mankind.

I do not follow any organized religion but I do have my own beliefs. Muslim populations seem to have a much harder time living with there neighbors. Even before the current wave of terrorism, most of the wars or "hot spots" globally had the Islamic religion on at least one side.

Perhaps the religion will evolve, but at this point there are core problems within the belief system.

The US had a Muslim problem going back to 1800's.

"In 1786, Jefferson and John Adams met with Tripoli’s ambassador to Great Britain. They asked this ‘diplomat’ by what right his nation attacked American ships and enslaved her citizens and why the Muslims held such hostility toward this new nation, with which neither Tripoli nor any of the other Barbary Coast nations had any previous contact. The answer was quite revealing. Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja (the ambassador) replied that Islam:

“Was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Qur’an, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”"
 
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HowardDeanSux said:
However, it is a worldwide problem and not just an American problem. The problem lies with radical Islam not the entire world (civilized and uncivilized). The dilemma is how to distinguish the "good Muslims" from the radical Islamists. The problem is easy to identify. The solution is much more elusive.
Click to expand...

The problem of radical Islam wouldn't exist or would be very minimal if it weren't for Western intervention in Islamic majority regions.

If a majority Christian nation were attacked in the same way as the Middle East has been attacked by outside forces you would see similar pockets of violent radical Christianity popping up.
 
knowell said:
You need to double check your source on the origins of Islam. Muhammad is the only spiritual leader of which I am aware that was also a conqueror. Judaism has some similar roots and may be the closest. Jesus, like him or not, was pretty much the polar opposite. Same for Buddhism, or Hinduism, etc. Many religions have been used to justify atrocities, but most have founders that were looking for a spiritual path that benefited mankind.
Click to expand...

LOL. The story of Judaism is basically God promising them some land and telling them/helping them go and conquer it. Christianity is a direct extension of Judaism. It is God's promise to the Jews fulfilled. And Jesus may not have come as a conquerer the first time but a core belief of Christianity (especially among the evangelicals mentioned in the article) is that he will come back as a Conqueror (See Revelations).
 
knowell said:
Many religions have been used to justify atrocities,

"In 1786, Jefferson and John Adams met with Tripoli’s ambassador to Great Britain. They asked this ‘diplomat’ by what right his nation attacked American ships and enslaved her citizens and why the Muslims held such hostility toward this new nation, with which neither Tripoli nor any of the other Barbary Coast nations had any previous contact. The answer was quite revealing. Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja (the ambassador) replied that Islam:

“Was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Qur’an, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”"
Click to expand...

Yup
 
HowardDeanSux said:
Are you intentionally responding like a dolt? The Islamic dilemma in the US is about radical Islamic terrorism, plain and simple. The author attempts to explain how the problem has arisen and suggests a possible solution. As to the rest of your comments, you must have skipped the paragraph where the author references you.

"But it’s also true of the ideas of many secular liberal Westerners, who take a more benign view of Islam mostly because they assume that all religious ideas are arbitrary, that it doesn’t matter what Muhammad said or did because tomorrow’s Muslims can just reinterpret the Prophet’s life story and read the appropriate liberal values in."
Click to expand...

Sorry, how much of a problem do you really think we have with radical Islamic terrorism in the United States? We're talking what, an average of 5-10 deaths a year? More people probably die in Christmas tree fires

You put so much emphasis on "distinguishing the good Muslims from the radical Islamists" as if this is some compelling issue that we NEED to solve. But I fail to understand why it's so compelling, especially in comparison to all the other "dilemmas" we have in this country
 
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RChildress107 said:
LOL. The story of Judaism is basically God promising them some land and telling them/helping them go and conquer it. Christianity is a direct extension of Judaism. It is God's promise to the Jews fulfilled. And Jesus may not have come as a conquerer the first time but a core belief of Christianity (especially among the evangelicals mentioned in the article) is that he will come back as a Conqueror (See Revelations).
Click to expand...

I grew up as a child to Christian missionaries and have been exposed to many different forms of Christianity and I know of none who believe that Jesus will come back as a conqueror in any conventional sense of the word. I have lots of issues with Christianity, but your description does it grave injustice.

Your description of Judaism is fairly apt and had much to do with my own changed religious view. Even so, there are no other religions that have such a continuous problem coexisting with there neighbors today.
 
Also, for what it is worth, I agree the Iraq War led to the development of the problem we have today. I do not desire a war in the ME, but the solution to the worldwide problem of radical Islam is uncertain. Our current strategy is an abject failure. I do not know your age, but I hate all the extra security required to live our everyday lives compared to the not so distant past. A viable solution is required and needed. All Americans should be desirous of this, no matter their religious beliefs.
 
knowell said:
I grew up as a child to Christian missionaries and have been exposed to many different forms of Christianity and I know of none who believe that Jesus will come back as a conqueror in any conventional sense of the word. I have lots of issues with Christianity, but your description does it grave injustice.

Your description of Judaism is fairly apt and had much to do with my own changed religious view. Even so, there are no other religions that have such a continuous problem coexisting with there neighbors today.
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Well of course they don't believe Christ will return as a conventional conqueror. Nothing he does is conventional.

Seventh Day Adventists Believe:

A Glorious Return. When Christ returns, He comes as a conqueror, with power and "'in the glory of His Father with His angels'" (Matt. 16:27). John the revelator portrays the glory of Christ's return in a most dramatic way. He pictures Christ riding on a white horse and leading the innumerable armies of heaven. The supernatural splendor of the glorified Christ is apparent (Rev. 19:11-16).
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58% of White Evangelical Christians believe that Christ will return to Earth by 2050.

Baptists believe

The Second Coming
Jesus Christ’s second coming is a distinct event from the rapture of the church, according to most Baptists. At the end of the 7-year tribulation period, Jesus will return to Earth with the armies of heaven, and destroy the Antichrist and what’s left of wicked humanity in the battle of Armageddon. After this, Jesus Christ will judge all humanity, both the living and the dead.
Click to expand...
 
HowardDeanSux said:
Also, for what it is worth, I agree the Iraq War led to the development of the problem we have today. I do not desire a war in the ME, but the solution to the worldwide problem of radical Islam is uncertain. Our current strategy is an abject failure. I do not know your age, but I hate all the extra security required to live our everyday lives compared to the not so distant past. A viable solution is required and needed. All Americans should be desirous of this, no matter their religious beliefs.
Click to expand...

Eliminate our military presence, vastly increase our humanitarian presence (where possible) and wait 30 years. That's the solution. The longer we put it off the worse its going to get.

Long-term worldwide problems require long-term world wide solutions.
 
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HowardDeanSux said:
Also, for what it is worth, I agree the Iraq War led to the development of the problem we have today. I do not desire a war in the ME, but the solution to the worldwide problem of radical Islam is uncertain. Our current strategy is an abject failure. I do not know your age, but I hate all the extra security required to live our everyday lives compared to the not so distant past. A viable solution is required and needed. All Americans should be desirous of this, no matter their religious beliefs.
Click to expand...

Again, why do "we," as in America, need to solve this worldwide problem when it is not a direct threat to us? We don't need all the "extra security" or any of the other BS. Again, Islamic terrorists are killing what, less than 10 people here per year? We would be better off if we just accepted that, like we accept tons of other things that cause a handful of deaths, and got on with our lives
 
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