Saudi World Golf Tour 2022/2023 Thread

Les Grossman said:

It would be cool if they had one event a year where players were forced to play with persimmon woods and balata balls.

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I think that would make a great "silly season" event. I'd make a great event period, but I doubt you'd ever see it for an actual Fedex Cup tournament.

liveanddiedeac said:

I think that would make a great "silly season" event. I'd make a great event period, but I doubt you'd ever see it for an actual Fedex Cup tournament.

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All it needs to be is one round with a few high profile players - it should be pretty entertaining. And they get no time with the clubs or balls to get used to them beforehand...

scooter84 said:

All it needs to be is one round with a few high profile players - it should be pretty entertaining. And they get no time with the clubs or balls to get used to them beforehand...

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Old school Marion Golf Club would be a great venue too, about 6500-6600 yards like it played for the US Open in the 70's. I guess it would be interesting though to see the guys playing a 7500 yard layout with that equipment too.

DJ picked up one of Jack's old drivers and with zero practice tagged it at a 290 carry, steel shaft wooden head. On a tour fairway estimate was 340+.

Dialing back distance is a pipe dream - it's not one factor. There have been like 4 actual breakthroughs in the past 30 years. Titanium let driver heads get lighter and larger at the same time with max COR, that's done. Graphite let shafts get stronger and lighter at the same time but we're pretty much at the limit there. The Pro V1 proved that a multi-core ball could spin at different rates off the wedge and driver to improve both at the same time, but no more revelations are coming there either imho. The 4th is launch monitoring technology to allow players like Bryson to understand precise launch, spin, and speed numbers at a mathematical level, not a "feel" one like the old guys. Everything recent like movable weights, exchangeable shafts, instant loft/lie adjustments - all just tweaks.

Add in the millions to be won every week and guys are dedicating their every waking second to building the perfect body for their golf swing - that's where we are. Hank Kuehne averaged over 320 yards on tour 17 years ago, he just didn't have Bryson's short game (he's 12th in putting this year, but no announcer wants to talk about anything other than how jacked he is). Assuming Bryson and Champ keep it going they'll be players 2 and 3 to ever do that since Hank. Once you hit the 20+ ranked guys in length you're talking under 10 yards of distance gained across decades. It's a completely overblown issue that has no single miracle cure - you'd have to ditch graphite, non-steel heads, and multi-core balls to "roll back" distance, and it still wouldn't do anything to limit the "unfair advantage" long hitters have. And Merion would argue you don't need 7,800 yards to create a tough golf course anyway.

Play courses with actual rough (last 3 courses I played had more rough than the last few PGA tour stops) and stop cutting the fairways like greens for tournament week to ensure 50 yard roll-outs. Continue the general migration to dwarf bermuda strains that survive firm and fast setups - things will be fine. In another 20 years some 6'5" phenom built like a tank will average 230 yards for the first time ever. Everyone will survive.

Growing the rough up more seems like a pretty obvious solution. Make it more punitive to miss fairways

Yeah, they’re not going to roll back equipment and I don’t see making the pros play limited flight balls. So, the answer to this bomb off the tee even if goes in the rough trend is make missing the fairway more penal. Narrow fairways and higher rough graduated rough. If a guy misses a fairway by a few yards they still have a playable shot, miss it by 10 yards it’s hit and hope. If the bomber has a really accurate week with the driver, let them shoot 20 some under par, if they don’t let them either suffer they consequences or dial it back off the tee.

ESPN reporting that the Ryder Cup will be pushed back a year (same with Presidents Cup) and will be announced tomorrow morning.

I can't say I'm sad...a Ryder Cup without fans would be nowhere near the same experience.

So the women are having the Scottish Open and British Open next month, yet the men flat out canceled the open months ago. What gives?

mersk862 said:

ESPN reporting that the Ryder Cup will be pushed back a year (same with Presidents Cup) and will be announced tomorrow morning.

I can't say I'm sad...a Ryder Cup without fans would be nowhere near the same experience.

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Yeah, plus with the majors coming so late in the year, there will be meaningful golf during that time to fill the Ryder Cup void.

cheeseheads12 said:

So the women are having the Scottish Open and British Open next month, yet the men flat out canceled the open months ago. What gives?

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Men's British Open probably had a better insurance policy, like Wimbledon. Plus, I doubt 40,000-50,000 people per day show up for the Women's British Open.

Wakeforest22890 said:

Growing the rough up more seems like a pretty obvious solution. Make it more punitive to miss fairways

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Negative. Shorter drivers are also going to miss the fairways. Not as frequently, but it's not a huge difference. Then you have the longer hitters taking a wedge out of rough vs shorter hitters taking irons out of rough when they both miss.

It's not going to penalize the longer hitters enough over time to make those even out. I believe Mark Broadie (inventor of strokes gained) has gone over this concept.

Graduate the rough based on distance from the tee.

Rough outside the fairway at the 250 yard landing area has light rough, landing area at 300+ yards has deep rough off the fairway. Problem solved.

Not sure if this has ever happened before on the PGA Tour, but they are playing consecutive weeks on the same course, Muirfield Village, starting tomorrow. This week is the "Workday Charity Open"; next week is the "Memorial Tournament" (Jack's invitational). FWIW, Tiger is expected to make his return to PGA play next week.

Sleepy said:

Graduate the rough based on distance from the tee.

Rough outside the fairway at the 250 yard landing area has light rough, landing area at 300+ yards has deep rough off the fairway. Problem solved.

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I agree. Long hitters can choose to use fairway metals or irons to avoid the longer rough or go for broke. Pin placements can also be chosen so as to place a greater premium on accuracy.

Teamramrod said:

Negative. Shorter drivers are also going to miss the fairways. Not as frequently, but it's not a huge difference. Then you have the longer hitters taking a wedge out of rough vs shorter hitters taking irons out of rough when they both miss.

It's not going to penalize the longer hitters enough over time to make those even out. I believe Mark Broadie (inventor of strokes gained) has gone over this concept.

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I'm perfectly fine with short hitters being penalized more for missed fairways, they should be forced to be more accurate to be competitive. If both are missing fairways, advantage long hitter, if the short hitter is much more accurate than the long hitter things are at least evened out a bit by more penal rough. I like the idea of graduated rough the farther out you hit it, but I think the bombers would whine about it to no end.

I think all of this is a bit of an over-reaction to Bryson DeChambeau winning last week (and perhaps DJ the week before).

Before that the previous winners on the tour were, Webb Simpson (#92 in driving distance), Daniel Berger (#81 driving distance) and Tyrell Hatton (#102 in driving distance), and Sungjae Im (#58). None of them are considered long hitters. The Detroit Golf Club, where DeChambeau won, and the River Highlands course where DJ won, both favor long hitters, but it's not like every PGA Course is playing the same way, and even last week, shorter hitters like Ryan Armour were in contention until the final few holes.

When Cameron Champ, DeChambeau and Rory start winning every event, maybe a change will need to be made, but in the most current Fed Ex Cup standings, Webb is leading (92nd in distance), Im is 3rd (58th in distance), Brendon Todd is 7th (he is 214th - third from last in driving distance), Berger is 9th (81st in distance) and Mark Leishman is 10th (he is 75th in driving distance). So, PGA players can find lots of success on the tour without bombing it off the tee.

Pilchard said:

Not sure if this has ever happened before on the PGA Tour, but they are playing consecutive weeks on the same course, Muirfield Village, starting tomorrow. This week is the "Workday Charity Open"; next week is the "Memorial Tournament" (Jack's invitational). FWIW, Tiger is expected to make his return to PGA play next week.

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Last time something like this happened was 1957. It sounds like they don't plan on cutting the rough in between the two tournaments, with lengths around 3.5 inches this week and 4+ next week. Slower green speeds and some pin placements never seen at Muirfield will also happen this weekend.

Pilchard said:

I think all of this is a bit of an over-reaction to Bryson DeChambeau winning last week (and perhaps DJ the week before).

Before that the previous winners on the tour were, Webb Simpson (#92 in driving distance), Daniel Berger (#81 driving distance) and Tyrell Hatton (#102 in driving distance), and Sungjae Im (#58). None of them are considered long hitters. The Detroit Golf Club, where DeChambeau won, and the River Highlands course where DJ won, both favor long hitters, but it's not like every PGA Course is playing the same way, and even last week, shorter hitters like Ryan Armour were in contention until the final few holes.

When Cameron Champ, DeChambeau and Rory start winning every event, maybe a change will need to be made, but in the most current Fed Ex Cup standings, Webb is leading (92nd in distance), Im is 3rd (58th in distance), Brendon Todd is 7th (he is 214th - third from last in driving distance), Berger is 9th (81st in distance) and Mark Leishman is 10th (he is 75th in driving distance). So, PGA players can find lots of success on the tour without bombing it off the tee.

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I think that's true to an extent and wholesale changes don't have to be made to all venues. As you stated, some courses just don't favor the long ball and probably don't need much change. If the distance trend keeps going though, many will if you want to keep them a real test. Can you imagine Bryson at St. Andrews right now? Heck, at least half the par 4's would be drivable especially under hard and fast conditions, combine that with the par 3's and there's only a handful of holes that can't be reached off the tee. The 2 par 5's would probably play as shortish par 4's. I sure don't want to see guys doing that in a PGA tournament, much less a major.

liveanddiedeac said:

I think that's true to an extent and wholesale changes don't have to be made to all venues. As you stated, some courses just don't favor the long ball and probably don't need much change. If the distance trend keeps going though, many will if you want to keep them a real test. Can you imagine Bryson at St. Andrews right now? Heck, at least half the par 4's would be drivable especially under hard and fast conditions, combine that with the par 3's and there's only a handful of holes that can't be reached off the tee. The 2 par 5's would probably play as shortish par 4's. I sure don't want to see guys doing that in a PGA tournament, much less a major.

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The thing with Bryson at St. Andrews right now is he'd have to keep it on the fairway. The rough there is exactly that - he'd be finding the rough or a bunker with a decent bit of frequency if he decides to be a full out bomber. The par 5s in 2015 played at 570 and 614 - even if you were to hit a drive 350 and land in the fairway, you're still not pulling a wedge out for a second shot. Add in the lovely Scottish weather (though the one day I went to St. Andrews it was a beautiful September day) and it still creates unpleasantness.

mersk862 said:

The thing with Bryson at St. Andrews right now is he'd have to keep it on the fairway. The rough there is exactly that - he'd be finding the rough or a bunker with a decent bit of frequency if he decides to be a full out bomber. The par 5s in 2015 played at 570 and 614 - even if you were to hit a drive 350 and land in the fairway, you're still not pulling a wedge out for a second shot. Add in the lovely Scottish weather (though the one day I went to St. Andrews it was a beautiful September day) and it still creates unpleasantness.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Open_Championship

That's all true, but if he or a guy like him had a good driving week, they would destroy. Looking at the yardages from 2015, there are 7 par 4's under 400 yards and 2 others in the low 400 yard range that I remember guys getting really close too under hard and fast conditions in the past. Plus, the Par 5's although long, again under hard and fast conditions would play fairly short. I remember guys hitting mid irons to par 5's in the past because of the run out. You're right, over there the big factor is the weather and bad weather can always make it play like a beast, but under benign dry conditions it would play awfully short for guys like Bryson.