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Saudi World Golf Tour 2022/2023 Thread

This may be a minority opinion, but I definitely think Dustin caused the ball to move. Meaning, if he wasn't around that ball it would not have moved.

Now whether that falls under the category of "addressing" the ball is another question completely. I read the rulebook, but it was inconclusive based on 18.1 (outside agency) and 18.2 (player causing the ball to move).
 
simosfrostyone said:
This was messed up but USGA officials are far superior to the PGA's and many of them are very good players. Try taking the rules test sometime if you think it's easy.
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I know the rules are super hard and have no doubt I would fail the rules test in epic fashion. However, no one needed to make a split second decision here (obviously) and after reading the rule and decisions, I just don't see how or why the USGA made the ruling that they did.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
This may be a minority opinion, but I definitely think Dustin caused the ball to move. Meaning, if he wasn't around that ball it would not have moved.

Now whether that falls under the category of "addressing" the ball is another question completely. I read the rulebook, but it was inconclusive based on 18.1 (outside agency) and 18.2 (player causing the ball to move).
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So what did he do that made the ball move? "Being around" the ball when it moves is not a penalty.

If you definitely think the caused it, you should have a "definite" cause in mind.
 
I thought this rule was modified after the fiasco that cost Webb a win, perhaps his first.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
This may be a minority opinion, but I definitely think Dustin caused the ball to move. Meaning, if he wasn't around that ball it would not have moved.

Now whether that falls under the category of "addressing" the ball is another question completely. I read the rulebook, but it was inconclusive based on 18.1 (outside agency) and 18.2 (player causing the ball to move).
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There's always one right, j/k.

The thing is then as was stated is what did he do to make it move? The officials couldn't say what they thought he actually did to make it move, Dustin said he didn't think he made it move, Westwood and his caddie didn't think DJ made it move, the video didn't show that he definitely made it move, so the USGA decides that since they couldn't determine exactly what made it move he should be penalized???? On greens that fast the ball can just move. I was playing Saturday on greens maybe half as fast as those and my ball moved a half a rotation when I was walking up to it to mark it. Since DJ's ball moved backwards not forwards and he never grounded his club behind the ball and you had greens running 14+ and he said he didn't think he did anything to make it move, to me the evidence was weighted toward he didn't make it move. It's just very fortunate for all involved that it didn't matter in the end. If that penalty had cost him the tournament yesterday or put him in a playoff today that he lost, I think you'd have seen an unprecedented backlash from the players.
 
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ibleedgoldandblack said:
So what did he do that made the ball move? "Being around" the ball when it moves is not a penalty.

If you definitely think the caused it, you should have a "definite" cause in mind.
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Well where is the burden of proof? Is it with Dustin to prove that he didn't make the ball move, or the USGA to prove that Dustin did make the ball move?

I think grounding the club on his practice stroke could easily have made the ball move. A slight tremor on greens that fast could easily move the ball. I don't, however, think he had "addressed" the ball though by the official rule, which states that you have addressed it when you ground the putter behind, or in front of the ball.

The timing of when the ball moved is pretty relevant in this instance. It moved right after he made the practice strokes and was set to address it.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
Well where is the burden of proof? Is it with Dustin to prove that he didn't make the ball move, or the USGA to prove that Dustin did make the ball move?

I think grounding the club on his practice stroke could easily have made the ball move. A slight tremor on greens that fast could easily move the ball. I don't, however, think he had "addressed" the ball though by the official rule, which states that you have addressed it when you ground the putter behind, or in front of the ball.

The timing of when the ball moved is pretty relevant in this instance. It moved right after he made the practice strokes and was set to address it.
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Yeah, he certainly never technically "addressed" it. It wasn't immediate though, there was a slight delay in the movement of the ball after he made the practice strokes.

I think it should really boil down to this. If you're going to expect the players to call their own penalties and the player says he didn't do anything wrong and then you go watch the video over and over again as I'm sure they did and you still can't really say the player did anything wrong, then there should be no penalty. The USGA basically said, "well we can't be sure what caused the ball to move, so we have to assume he caused it to move and incurred a penalty." I just think that's ass-backwards.
 
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If the greens would have been as fast and crusty as the USGA really wanted, and the wind would have blown a little harder, there probably would have been balls moving all over the place.
 
Bubble Boy said:
If the greens would have been as fast and crusty as the USGA really wanted, and the wind would have blown a little harder, there probably would have been balls moving all over the place.
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Exactly, the greens never got where the USGA wanted them.

I think the USGA needs to realize that having these 14+ green speeds on greens with that much slope is just not a good idea. I think the tournament would've been just as good with greens running at 12 personally. Nicklaus said when he won there in 62' they were maybe 10, which was fast in those days. Make the rough high, the fairways narrow, and greens fast (but not ridiculous) and if a guy like Dustin is driving in 320+ and hitting 80 percent of the fairways and shoots 10 under, so be it.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
This may be a minority opinion, but I definitely think Dustin caused the ball to move. Meaning, if he wasn't around that ball it would not have moved.

Now whether that falls under the category of "addressing" the ball is another question completely. I read the rulebook, but it was inconclusive based on 18.1 (outside agency) and 18.2 (player causing the ball to move).
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Addressing the ball means setting the club down behind the ball. On the blow-up video, it does not look like Justin did that.
 
Shorty said:
Addressing the ball means setting the club down behind the ball. On the blow-up video, it does not look like Justin did that.
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I agree with this. I don't believe he addressed it according to the rules of golf. I also think his actions prior to moving towards address caused the ball to move.

I have no idea how those two translate into the correct ruling. Apparently the burden was on Dustin to prove that something else caused his ball to move, and thus he was applied a penalty stroke when he could not do so.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
I agree with this. I don't believe he addressed it according to the rules of golf. I also think his actions prior to moving towards address caused the ball to move.

I have no idea how those two translate into the correct ruling. Apparently the burden was on Dustin to prove that something else caused his ball to move, and thus he was applied a penalty stroke when he could not do so.
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So it should be up to the player who saw it happen once in real-time in a split second to prove something else caused the ball to move as opposed to the USGA having the ability to watch it over and over again in high-def, in slo-mo having to prove he did cause the ball to move, which they admitted they couldn't do??? Makes no sense to me.
 
"Greg Chalmers @GregChalmersPGA

USGA " is there some other reason that the ball moved". Yep..gravity. #itkeepsusonearth
6:39 PM - 19 Jun 2016 · Colleyville, TX, United States "

I got to give him the best tweet award!
 
liveanddiedeac said:
Chamblee asked the USGA stooges that. He said "have you ever seen practice strokes where the putter never touched the ball cause it to move?" He said he hadn't and stooge 1 & 2 both dodged the question.
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Not always a fan of Chamblee but thought he was great last night on Live. They dodged his questions big time.
 
Do we expect any further statement from the USGA? I would hope the players would keep some level of pressure on to keep what could have happened to DJ from happening to them.
 
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