• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Saudi World Golf Tour 2022/2023 Thread

Maybe I don't understand golf marketing, but so far, everyone that has signed with LIV has either seen their best days or is having a crappy season, with the possible exception of Talor Gooch, who is just another guy. Realize golf isn't a team sport, but this is akin to LIV signing Russell Westbrook, Jon Wall, Jeff Teague, Kemba Walker, Tristan Thompson, Paul Millsap, Goran Dragic, and then people freaking out saying the NBA has to merge or work an accommodation or the NBA will be ruined. I don't see it. The best players remain on the PGAT, and the guys that left for LIV are replaceable by the 100s of younger, hungrier golfers fighting for the tour cards.

Phil Mickelson (the biggest LIV Tour name) had made one PGAT cut this season, is/was a non-factor on the PGAT and is even a non-factor on the LIV Tour.

Dustin Johnson hasn't won a PGA event in almost two years. Neither Koepka and DeChambeau nor had won on the PGAT this year. Bubba Watson is 0 for his last 50+ PGA events. Don't believe he's won on the PGAT since 2018.

These LIV defectors could see that they were getting lapped by other PGAT golfers; so, they jumped to LIV where they all got paid dumb money upfront. Makes sense from the players perspective because none of these guys were going to win on the PGAT. The reporting on those that have left is so backwards. So far, the reality is the the LIV golfers are a group of guys having bad seasons and/or guys that would never win on the PGAT again. Aware that there is no PGAT payday coming, they jumped at easy money. That's the story. Maybe it changes, but right now, the LIV tour is populated with guys that would be struggling to make the cut at the Rocket Mortgage Open; with no chance to even win low level PGAT events. This really is AAA baseball.
 
Liquid Karma said:
I'm about to embark on 2 weeks across the pond in Scotland. Still havent checked out Dundonald but finally crossing Royal Dornoch off the list next week.
Click to expand...

Never been. But I got my Dus mixed up. The women played the Scottish at Dumbarnie Links last year, which is near St. Andrew's and Kingsbarns. It's a newish course and was fantastic visually. This year they're playing Dundonald, which is on the west coast, and it was pouring there this a.m. And the men were tearing up the Fairmont course in better weather. But have a great time.
 
Pilchard said:
Maybe I don't understand golf marketing, but so far, everyone that has signed with LIV has either seen their best days or is having a crappy season, with the possible exception of Talor Gooch, who is just another guy. Realize golf isn't a team sport, but this is akin to LIV signing Russell Westbrook, Jon Wall, Jeff Teague, Kemba Walker, Tristan Thompson, Paul Millsap, Goran Dragic, and then people freaking out saying the NBA has to merge or work an accommodation or the NBA will be ruined. I don't see it. The best players remain on the PGAT, and the guys that left for LIV are replaceable by the 100s of younger, hungrier golfers fighting for the tour cards.

Phil Mickelson (the biggest LIV Tour name) had made one PGAT cut this season, is/was a non-factor on the PGAT and is even a non-factor on the LIV Tour.

Dustin Johnson hasn't won a PGA event in almost two years. Neither Koepka and DeChambeau nor had won on the PGAT this year. Bubba Watson is 0 for his last 50+ PGA events. Don't believe he's won on the PGAT since 2018.

These LIV defectors could see that they were getting lapped by other PGAT golfers; so, they jumped to LIV where they all got paid dumb money upfront. Makes sense from the players perspective because none of these guys were going to win on the PGAT. The reporting on those that have left is so backwards. So far, the reality is the the LIV golfers are a group of guys having bad seasons and/or guys that would never win on the PGAT again. Aware that there is no PGAT payday coming, they jumped at easy money. That's the story. Maybe it changes, but right now, the LIV tour is populated with guys that would be struggling to make the cut at the Rocket Mortgage Open; with no chance to even win low level PGAT events. This really is AAA baseball.
Click to expand...

Gooch and Horsefield were young guys just entering their primes. DJ and DeChambeau were still in their primes, and Reed was still good. Koepka has had injuries and appeared to lose interest during covid because there were no crowds. I would not have been surprised if a DJ, Koepka, Reed or DeChambeau won a major next year had it not been for LIV. But I just don't see these guys staying at the same level and seriously competing in majors over the next couple of years because they're going to lose some of their competitive edges when they're not playing on the PGA or DP on a regular basis. They've already gotten paid, so why go through that same grind.

As for the merger discussion, put me in the camp that believes strongly that will never happen.
 
Pilchard said:
Maybe I don't understand golf marketing, but so far, everyone that has signed with LIV has either seen their best days or is having a crappy season, with the possible exception of Talor Gooch, who is just another guy. Realize golf isn't a team sport, but this is akin to LIV signing Russell Westbrook, Jon Wall, Jeff Teague, Kemba Walker, Tristan Thompson, Paul Millsap, Goran Dragic, and then people freaking out saying the NBA has to merge or work an accommodation or the NBA will be ruined. I don't see it. The best players remain on the PGAT, and the guys that left for LIV are replaceable by the 100s of younger, hungrier golfers fighting for the tour cards.

Phil Mickelson (the biggest LIV Tour name) had made one PGAT cut this season, is/was a non-factor on the PGAT and is even a non-factor on the LIV Tour.

Dustin Johnson hasn't won a PGA event in almost two years. Neither Koepka and DeChambeau nor had won on the PGAT this year. Bubba Watson is 0 for his last 50+ PGA events. Don't believe he's won on the PGAT since 2018.

These LIV defectors could see that they were getting lapped by other PGAT golfers; so, they jumped to LIV where they all got paid dumb money upfront. Makes sense from the players perspective because none of these guys were going to win on the PGAT. The reporting on those that have left is so backwards. So far, the reality is the the LIV golfers are a group of guys having bad seasons and/or guys that would never win on the PGAT again. Aware that there is no PGAT payday coming, they jumped at easy money. That's the story. Maybe it changes, but right now, the LIV tour is populated with guys that would be struggling to make the cut at the Rocket Mortgage Open; with no chance to even win low level PGAT events. This really is AAA baseball.
Click to expand...

Agree with this completely. It's what I've been trying to say but just not as eloquently. Well said Pilchard.
 
cville deac said:
Gooch and Horsefield were young guys just entering their primes. DJ and DeChambeau were still in their primes, and Reed was still good. Koepka has had injuries and appeared to lose interest during covid because there were no crowds. I would not have been surprised if a DJ, Koepka, Reed or DeChambeau won a major next year had it not been for LIV. But I just don't see these guys staying at the same level and seriously competing in majors over the next couple of years because they're going to lose some of their competitive edges when they're not playing on the PGA or DP on a regular basis. They've already gotten paid, so why go through that same grind.

As for the merger discussion, put me in the camp that believes strongly that will never happen.
Click to expand...

But I think the point Pilchard is making is that it doesn't matter if they were still able to maybe win one a some point. They are basically off the map now and somebody else is going to win these tournaments and these guys will not be missed. The PGA Tour doesn't shut down when the stars age out, get injured, go into slumps, etc. Because somebody else is right there to take their place on the leaderboard. And that next guy will probably be even better. Having Tiger at an event is worth all the LIV guys put together times 50. And he has basically been gone for years and the PGA Tour rocks on.

I really can't understand in my tiny brain how someone could think the LIV is a threat to the PGA Tour. I mean I really can't. I honestly almost outwardly giggle a little bit when the thought briefly passes through my mind. To me it's absolutely absurd. But that takes us back to my tiny brain.
 
Pilchard said:
Maybe I don't understand golf marketing, but so far, everyone that has signed with LIV has either seen their best days or is having a crappy season, with the possible exception of Talor Gooch, who is just another guy. Realize golf isn't a team sport, but this is akin to LIV signing Russell Westbrook, Jon Wall, Jeff Teague, Kemba Walker, Tristan Thompson, Paul Millsap, Goran Dragic, and then people freaking out saying the NBA has to merge or work an accommodation or the NBA will be ruined. I don't see it. The best players remain on the PGAT, and the guys that left for LIV are replaceable by the 100s of younger, hungrier golfers fighting for the tour cards.

Phil Mickelson (the biggest LIV Tour name) had made one PGAT cut this season, is/was a non-factor on the PGAT and is even a non-factor on the LIV Tour.

Dustin Johnson hasn't won a PGA event in almost two years. Neither Koepka and DeChambeau nor had won on the PGAT this year. Bubba Watson is 0 for his last 50+ PGA events. Don't believe he's won on the PGAT since 2018.

These LIV defectors could see that they were getting lapped by other PGAT golfers; so, they jumped to LIV where they all got paid dumb money upfront. Makes sense from the players perspective because none of these guys were going to win on the PGAT. The reporting on those that have left is so backwards. So far, the reality is the the LIV golfers are a group of guys having bad seasons and/or guys that would never win on the PGAT again. Aware that there is no PGAT payday coming, they jumped at easy money. That's the story. Maybe it changes, but right now, the LIV tour is populated with guys that would be struggling to make the cut at the Rocket Mortgage Open; with no chance to even win low level PGAT events. This really is AAA baseball.
Click to expand...

I think the concern is not about who has already left, it's about who still might. Because I agree (with the exception of DJ, Bryson, Brooks, and maybe Ancer) there aren't really any guys that were likely to even contend to win PGA tournaments/majors consistently in the next 3+ years.

However, it's guys like Cam Smith, Xander Schauffele, Sam Burns, Patrick Cantlay, Viktor Hovland, etc that are the concern. If those guys see that LIV still has some stability at the end of this season, and they see that worse golfers are making way more money, they may make the decision to go. The guys that have more chances to be successful on the PGAT in the immediate future are going to be more risk averse than the guys that have already left, so it makes sense that those guys would wait out the first few LIV events to reevaluate the decision. And with every marginally good golfer that goes to LIV, it does offer some sense of stability to LIV as a (somewhat) legitimate option, which may eventually entice the guys that would make a real difference. You can sit here and say that Cam Smith on his own leaving doesn't make that big of a difference, but if all 5 of the guys I just listed were to jump, that would be 5 out of the top 11 and the PGAT would have a very real problem.

In your analogy, it would be like Giannis seeing Westbrook, Wall, Millsap leave mid-season to make a ton more money, but waiting to see what happens until the end of the season. If he likes what he sees out of the first 30 basketball games in the new league, maybe he gets together with Jokic, Embiid, and Ja Morant and decides to move to the new league.
 
deacon14 said:
I think the concern is not about who has already left, it's about who still might. Because I agree (with the exception of DJ, Bryson, Brooks, and maybe Ancer) there aren't really any guys that were likely to even contend to win PGA tournaments/majors consistently in the next 3+ years.

However, it's guys like Cam Smith, Xander Schauffele, Sam Burns, Patrick Cantlay, Viktor Hovland, etc that are the concern. If those guys see that LIV still has some stability at the end of this season, and they see that worse golfers are making way more money, they may make the decision to go. The guys that have more chances to be successful on the PGAT in the immediate future are going to be more risk averse than the guys that have already left, so it makes sense that those guys would wait out the first few LIV events to reevaluate the decision. And with every marginally good golfer that goes to LIV, it does offer some sense of stability to LIV as a (somewhat) legitimate option, which may eventually entice the guys that would make a real difference. You can sit here and say that Cam Smith on his own leaving doesn't make that big of a difference, but if all 5 of the guys I just listed were to jump, that would be 5 out of the top 11 and the PGAT would have a very real problem.

In your analogy, it would be like Giannis seeing Westbrook, Wall, Millsap leave mid-season to make a ton more money, but waiting to see what happens until the end of the season. If he likes what he sees out of the first 30 basketball games in the new league, maybe he gets together with Jokic, Embiid, and Ja Morant and decides to move to the new league.
Click to expand...

If Jokic, Embiid, and Ja Morant went to another league - and one that played primarily outside the US at that (in an odd format in relative seclusion, not that it matters in this) - would it hurt the NBA? Nope. The NBA draft just had some more of those guys as it does almost every year. Would the NBA be struggling if those guys never picked up a basketball and even came into the NBA? Nope. And that's the point. Depth depth depth.
 
Mark Hubbard disgusted by his shot... ends up with an ace.

 
These marketers are overpaid like their golfers. This belief you gonna turn golf viewing into a party GenZers are going to get behind is fantasy land. I could be to old to realize it could be. But the idea just makes me laugh.
 
Y’all seem really overconfident about the future of a league with no bankable mainstream stars (like Arnie, Jack, or Tiger) that has lost a fifth of its top 50 players in a few months to a league with no legitimacy but unlimited money.
 
PhDeac said:
Y’all seem really overconfident about the future of a league with no bankable mainstream stars (like Arnie, Jack, or Tiger) that has lost a fifth of its top 50 players in a few months to a league with no legitimacy but unlimited money.
Click to expand...

In part it's because they're stealing "top 50" guys of what? Of the world golf ranking? Which the PGA Tour essentially created? LIV is stealing guys made famous by the PGA Tour. There's a finite number of those, and LIV is nowhere close to "creating" any by itself.

It's not really a question of whether there's a future for the PGA. It's just how different, if at all, that future will be. The mere ability for the LIV to continue existing will always be a question mark, because if one dude in Saudi Arabia gets fired then poof, nobody there cares about golf anymore and they can just pull the plug. Or maybe they just continue throwing hundreds of millions at it for year after year with no actual returns. Not sure which is more likely to be honest. But one thing that is incredibly unlikely is that the path from college, through the Korn Ferry - tied to the USGA and by association the DP Tour and R&A - that isn't going anywhere. It might change, it might add/remove events and prize money, whatever. Maybe they all crater and give the top 50 ranked players 8 LIV tourneys each year as a reward for being in the top 50. But it's not in actual jeopardy.
 
PhDeac said:
Y’all seem really overconfident about the future of a league with no bankable mainstream stars (like Arnie, Jack, or Tiger) that has lost a fifth of its top 50 players in a few months to a league with no legitimacy but unlimited money.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Golf is a game of history and the only real thing that matters is the majors (none of which are run by the PGAT), and to the not so serious golf fan the only thing that matters is the Masters.

LIV has guys who’ve won 24 majors (of 71) since 2004. That is more than 1/3 of majors since that stretch.

LIV guys have won 11 majors (out of 23) (48%) since 2016.

They’ve won 9 of the last 18 Masters. They are destroying the Ryder Cup which was one of the biggest things the PGAT and DP World Tour had.

And there are more players to come, presumably better ones. It’s a big deal.

It may fail terribly and I hope it does, but it has come out of nowhere, Phil gave one of the dumbest quotes in sports history that I thought had totally killed it before it even started, they aren’t on TV yet, and yet LIV is still gaining momentum.

They figure out the team/franchise concept and get a legit TV deal, throw in Feherty, Barkley, and McCord, get their guys in the majors, and I don’t see what stops them unless the Saudis lose interest.

PGAT survives as long as it wants - much like WFU football survives as long as it wants. But, we all know that realignment is a major risk to the prestige of WFU athletics due almost entirely to a discrepancy in money. Why the PGAT would think otherwise is beyond me.
 
Damn good post. Well said.
 
this is well known to a lot of folks, but bubba is a miserable jerk
 
shocker - but trump was hanging out at the LIV event this week at his course in NJ

bryson pandering to the orange clown
 
PhDeac said:
Y’all seem really overconfident about the future of a league with no bankable mainstream stars (like Arnie, Jack, or Tiger) that has lost a fifth of its top 50 players in a few months to a league with no legitimacy but unlimited money.
Click to expand...

Who are the bankable mainstream stars with LIV? And which league has 80% of the top 50 players? And I have explained the rest exhaustingly as have others. Yep. Confident.
 
Let me add that outside of Tiger there aren't any "bankable" stars in golf. And obviously there certainly won't be any born from the Saudi Arabian LIV tour. I'm sure if there's one thing we can all agree on here it is that.
 
Tiger is the most bankable, but really crazy to think he's the only one.

Rory is massive. Spieth is huge. Hideki is huge, especially in japan.
 
a) if they keep buying the top 50 players, that 80% will drop very quickly. As recently as June 1 the posts here were laughing at how crappy the LIV fields were. In less than 2 months they have taken 20% of the top 50, in a sport where there's no team loyalty and prize money IS the prize for most of them.
b) they are going to get a TV package if they keep this up
c) if they keep this up, the leaderboard for the Memorial is going to look exactly like the leaderboard for the John Deere Classic, and the PGA Tour WILL lose viewers. Sure, there are plenty of talented young golfers out there, but there aren't a bunch of overlooked golfers toiling away on the Korn Ferry tour who will make a big splash once they finally make the Tour. They're on the Korn Ferry tour because they aren't as good, and it's not simply "next man up" as far as casual viewers are concerned. Sure, the PGA Tour will continue to have full fields, because there's an endless supply of golfers....but there's not an endless supply of really good golfers.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top