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Shooting at an Orlando Gay Night Club

lbE08 said:
Statements like this - especially in reference to allowing people into the US - boggle my mind.
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If it boggles your mind I think you're very naive, delusional even, about the backwards attitudes of many of the people who we are letting into the country.


lbE08 said:
As to your last sentence, that's not just an issue with radical Islam.
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The comparison is not entirely legitimate. First off, it's not "radical Islam", it's mainstream Islam in most of the countries these people are coming from. Look at research done by Pew and other organizations. Also, while there are sexist/homophobic Christian sects (though almost never to the extent you find in Islam- I don't see too many congregations stoning women for adultery), mainstream Christianity is pretty tolerant of gays. Look at the shit we argue about- letting transgender folks use bathrooms. I'm not saying that's not an important issue. But compared to what gays face in Muslim countries, it's a joke. Try having a gay pride parade in Islamabad and see how that goes.
 
Also, if you think conservative Christians are just as bad as Muslims, why add more backwards people to the society? Don't we already have enough gay hating assholes?
 
ThinkingWithMyDeac said:
Why is it when the weapon of destruction in a terrorist attack is guns we talk about what we have to do to the people with the guns and not the guns themselves. Other terrorist attacks result in changes to the instruments or procedures dealing with the instruments and not general sweeping unknown calls for unspecified action against Islamics. Terrorist attack with planes results in changes to the cockpit door and hijacking policies, terrorist attempted attack with shoe bombs, shoes now off at the airports, terrorist attack with pressure cookers monitoring of pressure cooker searches and purchasing online (ridiculous), attack with guns, we have to do something about these extremist people!
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I'm pretty sure the terrorist attack with planes resulted in a pretty big desire to do something about those extremist people. Hence the 15-year or so all-out war. But maybe I'm misremembering.
 
BobStackFan4Life said:
I have to question the thoroughness of the investigation given what happened. At a minimum, I think something should have been done to make it impossible for him or family members to legally own a gun. His father is a flat out nut who has made videos praising the Taliban and pretending to be the president of Afghanistan. He should be deported if a way can be found. And we need to reduce further immigration from Muslim countries to near zero- only let in people who we are positive are not overly religious and are facing daily threats in their countries- people like gays and atheists. And there needs to start being a robust and honest criticism of Islam, similar to what happened to Christianity in the 19th century with German scholars like Ludwig Feuerbach. Islam must be dragged out of the middle ages and into the 21st century. The woman must obey, gay hating bullshit must come to an end.
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dat 2nd Amendment though
 
PhDeac said:
Curious what more people want to do about radical Islamists Americans. Dude was flagged and investigated by the FBI. What else should they have done?
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I've said this on here for years, but we don't use immediate deportation as a solution enough. Kill multiple birds with stone; every time an American citizen is convicted of certain offenses (which would include both terrorist involvement and "normal" violent crimes) they should be immediately deported and immediate amnesty given to a current illegal who has a history of work and no criminal history. The deported person gets a parachute and a one-way plane flight the country of origin of the amnestied person. I'll trade Guatemala a Mohammed for a Jose-to-be-named-later every day of the week.

That helps immensely solve the problems of violent crime, immigration, overcrowded prisons, and repeat offenders in one single trade.
 
BobStackFan4Life said:
Also, if you think conservative Christians are just as bad as Muslims, why add more backwards people to the society? Don't we already have enough gay hating assholes?
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...because thoughtcrime is not a real reason to keep people out of this country? Unless there is an actual, credible threat demonstrated by an individual, there's no justification to keep them out just because their views may be backwards/conservative.
 
RJKarl said:
Another Wrangor laziness. The REASON that was posted is that someone brought up making bullets illegal....and others like it.

What's amazing is even when we're in 90+% agreement Wrangor won't accept it and wants to act like a biotch.
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I didn't say make bullets illegal, I said regulate them, i.e., ban high capacity magazines, limit the number of bullets per sale, etc. the constitution doesn't say anything about bullets and there is no constitutional right to bullets. It is not a fucking Chris Rock joke, it is a serious suggestion for how to build legislation to reduce the probability of these awful events.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
I've said this on here for years, but we don't use immediate deportation as a solution enough. Kill multiple birds with stone; every time an American citizen is convicted of certain offenses (which would include both terrorist involvement and "normal" violent crimes) they should be immediately deported and immediate amnesty given to a current illegal who has a history of work and no criminal history. The deported person gets a parachute and a one-way plane flight the country of origin of the amnestied person. I'll trade Guatemala a Mohammed for a Jose-to-be-named-later every day of the week.

That helps immensely solve the problems of violent crime, immigration, overcrowded prisons, and repeat offenders in one single trade.
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Which crime was he convicted of?
 
BobStackFan4Life said:
The comparison is not entirely legitimate. First off, it's not "radical Islam", it's mainstream Islam in most of the countries these people are coming from. Look at research done by Pew and other organizations. Also, while there are sexist/homophobic Christian sects (though almost never to the extent you find in Islam- I don't see too many congregations stoning women for adultery), mainstream Christianity is pretty tolerant of gays. Look at the shit we argue about- letting transgender folks use bathrooms. I'm not saying that's not an important issue. But compared to what gays face in Muslim countries, it's a joke. Try having a gay pride parade in Islamabad and see how that goes.
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only if you have a pretty low bar for tolerance (or a pretty narrow definition of "mainstream").
 
PhDeac said:
Curious what more people want to do about radical Islamists Americans. Dude was flagged and investigated by the FBI. What else should they have done?
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Working hard on this very issue actually, both with DHS and other law enforcement agencies. Combination of technology innovations and policy changes are needed. After 9/11 the ability to share information during active investigations was drastically improved. You used to hear about one group knowing that person A was an immediate threat while another key group knew nothing. Or you'd see multiple investigations into the same person that were completely silo'd.

So collaboration on active investigations and available info is much better, but what about targets that fall off the radar or simply aren't red-flagged enough to justify using the scarce eyes-on resources needed to watch them? The answer is going to be automated Amazon/Google style advanced entity analysis and analytics. But there is a big difference between sharing dozens and dozens of data sources to humans versus having computer systems dissect and intelligently combine those sources. Solutions like Palantir are moving this forward, but 1) there's not many real solutions out there, 2) Palantir has a stranglehold on the data causing many customers to try to escape, and 3) DHS has been a pathetic leader in tech - they often spend over a year reviewing solutions then recommend something incredibly vague or basic so as not to freak out any agencies.

Personally I'd like to see a continuing movement towards centralized government data sets with DHS-directed security levels. I'd like to see a mix of NSA/FBI/CIA technical resources join with the big private tech firms to build a standardized tool for all levels of law enforcement. I'd like to see buy-in from social media providers and the large network infrastructure folks to both identify folks engaging in terrorist activities online as well as disrupt and kill sources of propaganda and radicalization. If China can block Google, the US can do a better job locking out or flooding dark web chatter sources.

The Muslim ban is so stupid in this kind of discussion. If it wasn't ISIS it'd be some other group. There will always be mentally ill, extremely suggestible angry people getting preyed on by violent groups. Always has been. But now you have spam theory (even if .0001% responds, if you send 4 million messages you still have yourself a terror cell) applied to cult recruiting. That's the part you have to stop.
 
PhDeac said:
Which crime was he convicted of?
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Unfortunately for the people he killed, nothing. If I were the grand poobah I would make terrorist involvement/threats much more serious instances, with the aforementioned deportation looming as the punishment.
 
lbE08 said:
...because thoughtcrime is not a real reason to keep people out of this country? Unless there is an actual, credible threat demonstrated by an individual, there's no justification to keep them out just because their views may be backwards/conservative.
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But we have blocked people for their beliefs- anarchists and communists for example. The overwhelming majority of anarchists are peaceful people, yet they were still blocked from immigrating. I want to see our entire immigration policy revamped and geared much more towards people who are likely to be a significant benefit for the society. Largely limit it to the wealthy and most highly skilled/educated from other countries. And allow some humanitarian immigration for those facing threats in their countries. But no one should be allowed to immigrate whose values are not in line with mainstream American thinking. How you, who considers yourself a friend of the lgbt community, can support allowing millions of people who despise gays into the country boggles my mind.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Unfortunately for the people he killed, nothing. If I were the grand poobah I would make terrorist involvement/threats much more serious instances, with the aforementioned deportation looming as the punishment.
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I have about 12-15 people on facebook claiming to be able to build massive explosives in their garage that I can forward you.
 
BobStackFan4Life said:
But we have blocked people for their beliefs- anarchists and communists for example. The overwhelming majority of anarchists are peaceful people, yet they were still blocked from immigrating. I want to see our entire immigration policy revamped and geared much more towards people who are likely to be a significant benefit for the society. Largely limit it to the wealthy and most highly skilled/educated from other countries. And allow some humanitarian immigration for those facing threats in their countries. But no one should be allowed to immigrate whose values are not in line with mainstream American thinking. How you, who considers yourself a friend of the lgbt community, can support allowing millions of people who despise gays into the country boggles my mind.
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There's your problem. On almost every important decision, mainstream America is split on. I don't want decisions like that made based on the idiocy of mainstream America.
 
BobStackFan4Life said:
But we have blocked people for their beliefs- anarchists and communists for example. The overwhelming majority of anarchists are peaceful people, yet they were still blocked from immigrating. I want to see our entire immigration policy revamped and geared much more towards people who are likely to be a significant benefit for the society. Largely limit it to the wealthy and most highly skilled/educated from other countries. And allow some humanitarian immigration for those facing threats in their countries. But no one should be allowed to immigrate whose values are not in line with mainstream American thinking. How you, who considers yourself a friend of the lgbt community, can support allowing millions of people who despise gays into the country boggles my mind.
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I am actually laughing out loud right now that you're trying to take this discussion so low.
As to the rest of your post... we disagree on quite a bit, and somehow I doubt that anything happening here will result in the kind of dialogue that will change either of our minds.
 
DeaconSlim2.0 said:
There's your problem. On almost every important decision, mainstream America is split on. I don't want decisions like that made based on the idiocy of mainstream America.
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Yet you're okay with mainstream America giving us Obama and the results thereof?
 
RChildress107 said:
only if you have a pretty low bar for tolerance (or a pretty narrow definition of "mainstream").
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In any sizable American city you've got gay bookstores, gay pride parades. Even in small towns you regularly see rainbow flags, etc. I don't know any Christians who are virulently anti-gay. I know they're out there, but most Christians are pretty tolerant of gays. Plenty of churches have gay couples attending- and these aren't just far out Unitarian churches. Gays have it pretty good in the US- higher education levels than most people, higher incomes, etc. Especially when compared to what it's like for gays in Muslim countries.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Why don't you read the post where I said, specifically how, we should return elitism to gun ownership.
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Yeah, I definitely missed your post where you stated how we should "specifically" limit gun ownership to the "demonstratably capable"

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