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EU vote-Brexit...what will it mean to us?

So would I. You can't just keep calling people who express concerns about the way globalism has developed racists, Nazis, and xenophobes and leave it at that. Their concerns need to be addressed.
 
The market chaos is getting worse as it become clear that no one in Britain has a plan for Brexit and that there is a complete leadership vacuum in the country right now. Cameron's a lame duck and Farage and Johnson have hidden from the cameras since the vote. Nobody knows what comes next and nobody's in charge. Nobody had a plan for what to do on the day after a "leave" vote, least of all the actual people campaigning for the "leave" side. What a shitshow.

The lessons of the last 30-40 years are (a) globalization is a massive boon for humanity as a whole, (b) the benefits are widespread in some ways (cheaper t-shirts and iPhones) but concentrated in other ways (massive flows of wealth to the top 0.5%) (c) the burdens of globalization fall disproportionately on the poor and uneducated; and (d) western governments have been completely ineffectual in crafting a policy response to (b) and (c). Brexit and Trump are the howl of rage from the electorate about that failure. Assuming (and praying) that Trump loses in November, this needs to be a wake up call to both parties in this country to get serious about fixing this problem.

Boris isn't in hiding though it seems his column in The Telegraph was written for some Earth-2 where the campaign wasn't about migration and UK financial markets are reacting calmly
 
The market chaos is getting worse as it become clear that no one in Britain has a plan for Brexit and that there is a complete leadership vacuum in the country right now. Cameron's a lame duck and Farage and Johnson have hidden from the cameras since the vote. Nobody knows what comes next and nobody's in charge. Nobody had a plan for what to do on the day after a "leave" vote, least of all the actual people campaigning for the "leave" side. What a shitshow.

The lessons of the last 30-40 years are (a) globalization is a massive boon for humanity as a whole, (b) the benefits are widespread in some ways (cheaper t-shirts and iPhones) but concentrated in other ways (massive flows of wealth to the top 0.5%) (c) the burdens of globalization fall disproportionately on the poor and uneducated; and (d) western governments have been completely ineffectual in crafting a policy response to (b) and (c). Brexit and Trump are the howl of rage from the electorate about that failure. Assuming (and praying) that Trump loses in November, this needs to be a wake up call to both parties in this country to get serious about fixing this problem.

There is a candidate whose platform was/is serious about fixing b and c

Also your first paragraph holds up well apart from being way off about Boris and Nazi Nigel being in hiding. Nigel immediately got on the Beeb to say there'd be no £350mm/week for the NHS! Fortunately for your post, the fact that they're in public walking back the entirety of the campaign furthers your point that it's a massive clusterfuck (or cock-up)
 
Boris isn't in hiding though it seems his column in The Telegraph was written for some Earth-2 where the campaign wasn't about migration and UK financial markets are reacting calmly

i hadn't read it - just did, and also read this rebuttal: http://qz.com/717412/boris-johnsons-telegraph-column-on-brexit-is-made-of-lies-half-truths-omissions-and-magical-thinking/ Magical thinking, indeed.

I have no idea at all how this is all going to shake out. What I have seen in The Economist indicates that most of the thinkers supporting Brexit have a general idea that Britain will end up with the Norway deal - but that requires free movement of workers. Without calling anyone a racist or Nazi, I think it is clear that a very, very large part of the Leave movement was about restricting migration. I don't see how the Brexiteers can negotiate a Norway deal, which arguably gives Britain even LESS control over migration, without causing complete rebellion in that base. And I don't see how the EU is going to give Britain a favorable trade deal that doesn't involve free movement. What I do see is that this is all going to take years to work out, nobody knows what's going to happen next, and the UK economy is going to suffer greatly from all the uncertainty in the interim. What company with any kind of global reach is going to make a big investment in Britain until all this settles out?
 
So would I. You can't just keep calling people who express concerns about the way globalism has developed racists, Nazis, and xenophobes and leave it at that. Their concerns need to be addressed.

There is a difference between expressing concerns on how globalism has developed, specifically the impact it has had on labor in economically developed countries, and calling for a return to nationalism using racist, xenophobic rhetoric. I suppose you are right though that we should call them racist xenophobes and then try to address the root causes that drive that racism and xenophobia.
 
Voters are owed more compassion and understanding than leaders. I am not out of line on anything I've said about Farage, who is bad and a Nazi.
 
The market chaos is getting worse as it become clear that no one in Britain has a plan for Brexit and that there is a complete leadership vacuum in the country right now. Cameron's a lame duck and Farage and Johnson have hidden from the cameras since the vote. Nobody knows what comes next and nobody's in charge. Nobody had a plan for what to do on the day after a "leave" vote, least of all the actual people campaigning for the "leave" side. What a shitshow.

The lessons of the last 30-40 years are (a) globalization is a massive boon for humanity as a whole, (b) the benefits are widespread in some ways (cheaper t-shirts and iPhones) but concentrated in other ways (massive flows of wealth to the top 0.5%) (c) the burdens of globalization fall disproportionately on the poor and uneducated; and (d) western governments have been completely ineffectual in crafting a policy response to (b) and (c). Brexit and Trump are the howl of rage from the electorate about that failure. Assuming (and praying) that Trump loses in November, this needs to be a wake up call to both parties in this country to get serious about fixing this problem.

We've had this discussion before in other contexts, but I think making people understand the interrelation of (b) and (c) is the key. The top .5% concentrating that wealth is a primary reason for the widespread benefits, and the poor and uneducated are the ones who see the biggest resulting benefits of that to go along with bearing the biggest burden. So is that a trade-off that they are willing to live with and are we okay with a general "know your role" response, with obvious exceptions for those individuals who are able to move upwards from their general roles through mostly their own efforts.
 
We've had this discussion before in other contexts, but I think making people understand the interrelation of (b) and (c) is the key. The top .5% concentrating that wealth is a primary reason for the widespread benefits, and the poor and uneducated are the ones who see the biggest resulting benefits of that to go along with bearing the biggest burden. So is that a trade-off that they are willing to live with and are we okay with a general "know your role" response, with obvious exceptions for those individuals who are able to move upwards from their general roles through mostly their own efforts.

I think that Brexit and the Trump and Bernie campaigns are big fat "no" to the bolded question. People want a policy response to this. Depending on who you ask, they want their leaders to address immigration, allegedly job-stifling Euro-regulations, or tax the shit out of the fat cats, but a very large portion of the electorate does not see cheap t-shirts and iPhones as a substitute for having a decent well-paying job and the opportunity for their kids to get ahead.
 
I love when we post clips of uneducated folks on any side of an issue. Definitely something we should look at when deciding if it was a good idea or not, or whether the majority of supporters were informed about the decision they were voting on (in this case clearly a lot of folks were not informed).
 
I love when we post clips of uneducated folks on any side of an issue. Definitely something we should look at when deciding if it was a good idea or not, or whether the majority of supporters were informed about the decision they were voting on (in this case clearly a lot of folks were not informed).

Why bother posting clips ? Just read The Tunnels.
 
I wouldn't say Nigel is a Nazi per se - but he's also not afraid of having them very close to himself (a number of UKIP members at even very high levels have been busted for racists rants, being Stormfront regulars, etc). It's a dangerous game that many on the far right of legitimate politics in Europe are playing right now. Their close neighbors in many cases are very, very nasty people ... and it's not always possible to keep your nasty neighbors from spilling out into your yard once you start acknowledging them regularly.
 
I think that Brexit and the Trump and Bernie campaigns are big fat "no" to the bolded question. People want a policy response to this. Depending on who you ask, they want their leaders to address immigration, allegedly job-stifling Euro-regulations, or tax the shit out of the fat cats, but a very large portion of the electorate does not see cheap t-shirts and iPhones as a substitute for having a decent well-paying job and the opportunity for their kids to get ahead.

I agree that is their sentiment. However, I think many of them also vastly overestimate their own abilities and value. So would they rather be poor in terms of the Western stratification, but able to afford cheap technology, food, and goods that make their lives seem like royalty in comparison to those who've "taken" their jobs? Or would they rather have a higher sense of theoretical self-worth but be priced out of their current standard of living? I think if you adjusted the system then most of the same people's higher sense of self worth would last about a year until they realized that they couldn't afford their prior comforts and then they'd be complaining that they were screwed again.
 
I'll say one thing for the Nazis, they'll be remembered far longer than Nigel or BSF
 
I agree that is their sentiment. However, I think many of them also vastly overestimate their own abilities and value. So would they rather be poor in terms of the Western stratification, but able to afford cheap technology, food, and goods that make their lives seem like royalty in comparison to those who've "taken" their jobs? Or would they rather have a higher sense of theoretical self-worth but be priced out of their current standard of living? I think if you adjusted the system then most of the same people's higher sense of self worth would last about a year until they realized that they couldn't afford their prior comforts and then they'd be complaining that they were screwed again.

Assuming arguendo that your assertion here is correct, in the current political setting I'm not sure it matters. There is a large group of people in Britain and America who want something, anything, to change because they perceive that they are getting screwed under the existing system. The experts and smart people tell them over and over again that the thing they want changed will actually hurt them in the long run, but it falls on deaf ears. They've been screwed and marginalized for so long by experts and smart people that they just want to break some windows for the sake of changing the scenery. That is what has led to Brexit and to Trump being the GOP nominee, and to Bernie's very unexpected strength.

The point is that the elites in the US need to figure out how to address these issues before something truly harmful happens to us. David Cameron let the genie out of the bottle in Britain and a whole generation of people is going to suffer as a result. The analysis you just posted may actually be true - but it won't make Bernie or Trump supporters feel better or change their votes.
 
Assuming arguendo that your assertion here is correct, in the current political setting I'm not sure it matters. There is a large group of people in Britain and America who want something, anything, to change because they perceive that they are getting screwed under the existing system. The experts and smart people tell them over and over again that the thing they want changed will actually hurt them in the long run, but it falls on deaf ears. They've been screwed and marginalized for so long by experts and smart people that they just want to break some windows for the sake of changing the scenery. That is what has led to Brexit and to Trump being the GOP nominee, and to Bernie's very unexpected strength.

The point is that the elites in the US need to figure out how to address these issues before something truly harmful happens to us. David Cameron let the genie out of the bottle in Britain and a whole generation of people is going to suffer as a result. The analysis you just posted may actually be true - but it won't make Bernie or Trump supporters feel better or change their votes.

I agree, and I don't know what the answer is other than just blatant "know your role". For what it's worth from my cynical point of view, I think the American system has done its best to increase the standard of living of the electorate, and the distractions that come with it, to avoid the catastrophe. The system has distracted most people enough via hi-def reality TV and the NFL and phone apps and vaping and other bullshit to disengage them from politics in general. Euros, for whatever reason, seem to be much more engaged in politics in general. Bernie's support couldn't reach its necessary critical mass because not enough people in America give a fuck. Trump is an anomaly because he comes from the distraction of the celebrity reality TV world so is pulling the distraction into the politics.
 
Assuming arguendo that your assertion here is correct, in the current political setting I'm not sure it matters. There is a large group of people in Britain and America who want something, anything, to change because they perceive that they are getting screwed under the existing system. The experts and smart people tell them over and over again that the thing they want changed will actually hurt them in the long run, but it falls on deaf ears. They've been screwed and marginalized for so long by experts and smart people that they just want to break some windows for the sake of changing the scenery. That is what has led to Brexit and to Trump being the GOP nominee, and to Bernie's very unexpected strength.

The point is that the elites in the US need to figure out how to address these issues before something truly harmful happens to us. David Cameron let the genie out of the bottle in Britain and a whole generation of people is going to suffer as a result. The analysis you just posted may actually be true - but it won't make Bernie or Trump supporters feel better or change their votes.

The problem with this post is that Trump and Brexit are bad, but Bernie is actually good
 
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