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Respect & Patriotism vs. Free Speech & Protest

Deacsfan27 said:
The fact that despite his wealth, fame, and success (on and off the field), he still can't get past the color of his skin and be seen as successful in a lot of peoples eyes is exactly why he making the point that he is.

i don't think the protest was especially well thought out, and also doesn't really do much aside from amplify divisions, but it is absolutely his right as an American, and one that people have been fighting for.
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Precisely. He's a dumbass. He's had years of people hanging on his every word as a starting quarterback when he could have spoken his mind, assuming he had fully formed opinions. Instead he just come off looking like a disposable, washed up 3rd string quarterback who can't do what the other 79 people on his team, 70 of whom are black, are doing.
 
It definitely wasn't well thought out but it doesn't mean he shouldn't have a voice.

There's no ideal spokesperson for these issues. People get up at arms about polished activist speaking up. They get upset about well educated people speaking up. They get upset about famous athletes and entertainers speaking up.

The problem for them isn't the messengers or the method. It's the method itself.
 
I don't know how to embed tweets, but TITCR

Pablo S. Torre ‏@PabloTorre Aug 27
Hell of a morning for people who can't stand criticism of America while unironically wearing Make America Great Again hats
 
As for the comments on the Pledge of Allegiance - people seem to focus on the silliness of pledging allegiance to a flag - a symbol. But what about the part that says "and to the Republic for which it stands... etc. It seems like, after the first phrase, the entire pledge is actually pledging allegiance to the nation...
 
scooter84 said:
As for the comments on the Pledge of Allegiance - people seem to focus on the silliness of pledging allegiance to a flag - a symbol. But what about the part that says "and to the Republic for which it stands... etc. It seems like, after the first phrase, the entire pledge is actually pledging allegiance to the nation...
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It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but pledging allegiance has the potential to be a slippery slope to dangerous nationalism. What happens if you pledge allegiance to the republic and all of a sudden that republic starts unilaterally nuking other countries?

An extreme example, no doubt, but the premise still applies.
 
PhDeac said:
It definitely wasn't well thought out but it doesn't mean he shouldn't have a voice.

There's no ideal spokesperson for these issues. People get up at arms about polished activist speaking up. They get upset about well educated people speaking up. They get upset about famous athletes and entertainers speaking up.

The problem for them isn't the messengers or the method. It's the method itself.
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Americans don't like criticism. Or mirrors.
 
it's a little strange in 2016 to still have it be a fixture, but i think people go a little overboard on their Pledge concern
 
scooter84 said:
As for the comments on the Pledge of Allegiance - people seem to focus on the silliness of pledging allegiance to a flag - a symbol. But what about the part that says "and to the Republic for which it stands... etc. It seems like, after the first phrase, the entire pledge is actually pledging allegiance to the nation...
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This is Colin's entire premise about standing and honoring the flag. It's not about the symbol at all. It's about the America behind it.

Instead of looking at the actual problems that he is trying to "raise awareness" about, people are just stopping at the symbolizing of him and the flag itself.
 
PhDeac said:
It definitely wasn't well thought out but it doesn't mean he shouldn't have a voice.

There's no ideal spokesperson for these issues. People get up at arms about polished activist speaking up. They get upset about well educated people speaking up. They get upset about famous athletes and entertainers speaking up.

The problem for them isn't the messengers or the method. It's the method itself.
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I don't remember anyone getting upset about the LeBron, Carmelo, CP3, Wade speech at the ESPYs. Most everyone I saw on both "sides" of the issue appreciated and respected their comments and the way they presented them. Why? Because they addressed the problem in a way that made rational sense, while recognizing that the vast, vast majority of the population are not to blame for the problem.

Kaepernick's protest has nothing to do with the problem he is attempting to address, and is generally an act that is done with specific connotation of disrespect to a majority of the population, not just indifference. It is the same as giving the finger to a large percentage of the population, and that is exactly why he did it. Which is fine if that what he wants to do, but he is naturally going to get the finger back from that same target.

Plus, not too many people are going to respect the racial views of someone who was fined by the NFL for calling someone a fucking n@gger, so he might be wrong spokesman for the movement in general.
 
scooter84 said:
As for the comments on the Pledge of Allegiance - people seem to focus on the silliness of pledging allegiance to a flag - a symbol. But what about the part that says "and to the Republic for which it stands... etc. It seems like, after the first phrase, the entire pledge is actually pledging allegiance to the nation...
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Because the "liberty and justice for all" clause is laughable.

And the insertion of "under God," for a nation strictly prohibiting the establishment of religion.
 
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2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
I don't remember anyone getting upset about the LeBron, Carmelo, CP3, Wade speech at the ESPYs. Most everyone I saw on both "sides" of the issue appreciated and respected their comments and the way they presented them. Why? Because they addressed the problem in a way that made rational sense, while recognizing that the vast, vast majority of the population are not to blame for the problem.

Kaepernick's protest has nothing to do with the problem he is attempting to address, and is generally an act that is done with specific connotation of disrespect to a majority of the population, not just indifference. It is the same as giving the finger to a large percentage of the population, and that is exactly why he did it. Which is fine if that what he wants to do, but he is naturally going to get the finger back from that same target.

Plus, not too many people are going to respect the racial views of someone who was fined by the NFL for calling someone a fucking n@gger, so he might be wrong spokesman for the movement in general.
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The difference, according to Bomani Jones (who when he is not fixing people's grammar on Twitter is actually a very insightful writer) is that Kaepernick is asking for "justice, not peace", and that's completely different than what the ESPYs speech was about.

http://theundefeated.com/features/kaepernick-is-asking-for-justice-not-peace/
 
Deacsfan27 said:
The difference, according to Bomani Jones (who when he is not fixing people's grammar on Twitter is actually a very insightful writer) is that Kaepernick is asking for "justice, not peace", and that's completely different than what the ESPYs speech was about.

http://theundefeated.com/features/kaepernick-is-asking-for-justice-not-peace/
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Justice for who? All perpetrators/victims of violence, or just the very, very small percentage thereof in which police are involved?
 
ImTheCaptain said:
it's laughable to strive for liberty and justice for all?
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I don't recall the part of the pledge where there's any suggestion that "liberty and justice for all" is a goal. It's just a statement that that's what we have, when we don't. The nation is also declared "under God," which runs counter to the first amendment.
 
I think the US does stand for liberty and justice for all - our laws establish it that way and I believe the great majority of the people hope that we, by and large, run the country and live our lives that way. There are many, many instances where this does not prove true - some anecdotal and isolated, some systemic. But I like to believe we, as a nation, are always trying to ferret out those shortcomings and move toward a more complete 'liberty and justice for all' reality.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Justice for who? All perpetrators/victims of violence, or just the very, very small percentage thereof in which police are involved?
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I don't claim to speak for Bomani, but based on reading his article I would say this paragraph answers your question:

The meat of the issue is his words. Kaepernick declared that this country oppresses black people and its law enforcement officers kill black people with impunity — often receiving pats on the back for doing so. Both history and the newspaper support his belief. We’ve seen Americans give from their own pockets to police officers known only for killing black teenagers. Even George Zimmerman took in hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations from strangers, and he wasn’t even an officer of the law.
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scooter84 said:
I think the US does stand for liberty and justice for all - our laws establish it that way and I believe the great majority of the people hope that we, by and large, run the country and live our lives that way. There are many, many instances where this does not prove true - some anecdotal and isolated, some systemic. But I like to believe we, as a nation, are always trying to ferret out those shortcomings and move toward a more complete 'liberty and justice for all' reality.
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As one of the two primary candidates has made remark after remark about how bad African-American lives are, and has promised to keep millions of more seeking "liberty and justice for all" out of our country.

Meanwhile the other candidate (according to the other side) promotes ideas that have "failed people of color" for the past 50 years with no improvement.
 
BiffTannen said:
I don't recall the part of the pledge where there's any suggestion that "liberty and justice for all" is a goal. It's just a statement that that's what we have, when we don't. The nation is also declared "under God," which runs counter to the first amendment.
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well, i don't read it that way.

and yes, the Under God part is a ridiculous addition to an already ridiculous "pledge"
 
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