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Respect & Patriotism vs. Free Speech & Protest

scooter84 said:
I think the US does stand for liberty and justice for all - our laws establish it that way and I believe the great majority of the people hope that we, by and large, run the country and live our lives that way. There are many, many instances where this does not prove true - some anecdotal and isolated, some systemic. But I like to believe we, as a nation, are always trying to ferret out those shortcomings and move toward a more complete 'liberty and justice for all' reality.
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Fine, but don't require me to say the pledge of allegiance without rolling my eyes a couple of times.
 
BiffTannen said:
Fine, but don't require me to say the pledge of allegiance without rolling my eyes a couple of times.
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I think nationalism is sort of counterproductive at this point but it serves a purpose if we're going to stick with the Nation State thing
 
Yeah I don't say the pledge. I stood up because I had to in school. The only nationalism I buy into is loving the US soccer teams, other than that I don't really care.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
I don't claim to speak for Bomani, but based on reading his article I would say this paragraph answers your question:
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So that is up to him if he wants to focus on that small percentage, but the inconsistency of the logic behind it is why most people will ignore and downplay his efforts. Especially from someone who thinks of the victims that he trying to help as fucking n@ggers.
 
Yeah, I look forward to the day that American nationalism means brawling in the streets at the World Cup instead of all of the other stupid hackneyed shit we do.
 
http://www.freewoodpost.com/2016/08/29/zero-more-dead-in-horrific-national-anthem-incident/

[h=1]Zero More Dead In Horrific National Anthem Incident [/h]
"This country stands for freedom, liberty, justice for all — and it’s not happening for all right now,” Kaepernick said. But despite the fact that no one was hurt, Kaepernick refused to apologize. This all comes on the heels of the shocking lack of effect on anyone when United States Olympic gymnast Gabby Douglas did not put her hand over her heart during the national anthem during the recent Olympic Games in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. In the aftermath of the Douglas disaster, no one was rushed to the hospital as seconds counted for the unscathed bystanders.
“Try that shit in Iran or Saudia Arabia!” said Twitter user @MericaNumOne1. “This is A-fucking-merica where we are free and you stand for the Goddamn national anthem or we kick your ass!”
“I bet he wouldn’t try that in North Korea! They’d put him in a torture chamber for that. Here we just shower him with violent threats and racial epithets on social media. Love it or leave it!” added @ImpeechObumer.
Many more weighed in with additional evidence that the United States is at least better than several other detestable shitholes across the world. Kaepernick posted that he is standing up to the systemic mistreatment of people of color in this country, but he obviously forgot the fact that the President of the United States is African-American and “Will Smith has a lot of money, too.”
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2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
So that is up to him if he wants to focus on that small percentage, but the inconsistency of the logic behind it is why most people will ignore and downplay his efforts. Especially from someone who thinks of the victims that he trying to help as fucking n@ggers.
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Didn't the league reduce his fine and say there was no evidence of it? I seem to remember the recipient saying he wasn't sure if he said it or not. Not to mention even if he did say it, I'd guess it was more of the -a than the -er variety and likely not from a racist place.
 
Deadbolt said:
Americans don't like criticism. Or mirrors.
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Especially about racism, right? Things haven't changed a bit, they're exactly like they were 50 years ago! The Americans that really really care about the criticism can't make the changes they want to fix the problem because the rest are dumb racist hicks who want the country to go back to slavery. That about sum it up?
 
pourdeac said:
Especially about racism, right? Things haven't changed a bit, they're exactly like they were 50 years ago! The Americans that really really care about the criticism can't make the changes they want to fix the problem because the rest are dumb racist hicks who want the country to go back to slavery. That about sum it up?
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Nobody has said that things haven't changed since 50 years ago. Nobody is blaming "racist hicks" for everything either.

That doesn't mean that we are a place in society now that we need to be in, where "liberty and justice for all" truly means that instead of just lip service.
 
I don't understand why you can't be proud of your country, what it (mostly) stands for and what it is at least striving to be - at the same time recognizing its shortcomings and the areas where much improvement is needed. For all its warts, the U.S. is pretty kickass.
 
scooter84 said:
I don't understand why you can't be proud of your country, what it (mostly) stands for and what it is at least striving to be - at the same time recognizing its shortcomings and the areas where much improvement is needed. For all its warts, the U.S. is pretty kickass.
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I agree. He should have stood up for the national anthem. I said as much.

The Pledge is silly though.
 
I'm a liberal heathen anti-war hippie pot smoking drunk and I stand up for the national anthem and take off my hat and all, sometimes sing it. I look at the flag and when the singer is good and jets fly over I get the chills and get a bit of a hard on for America :noidea:
 
scooter84 said:
I don't understand why you can't be proud of your country, what it (mostly) stands for and what it is at least striving to be - at the same time recognizing its shortcomings and the areas where much improvement is needed. For all its warts, the U.S. is pretty kickass.
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yeah this argument is pretty dumb and sounds like a bunch of college freshmen arguing about who is more cynical. my grandfather was a WWII vet, cool dude, good businessman who was also a racist prick and left his wife when his last kid hit 18.

life's complicated
 
BiffTannen said:
Because the "liberty and justice for all" clause is laughable.

And the insertion of "under God," for a nation strictly prohibiting the establishment of religion.
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The insertion of "under God" in the Pledge does not remotely amount to an establishment of religion.
 
bmoneydeac said:
Didn't the league reduce his fine and say there was no evidence of it? I seem to remember the recipient saying he wasn't sure if he said it or not. Not to mention even if he did say it, I'd guess it was more of the -a than the -er variety and likely not from a racist place.
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Ah, well I guess that makes it okay.

 
Junebug said:
That is not a proper use of the word "establishment" as used in the constitution. The pledge establishes neither a religion nor religion writ large.
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i understand but it's not the constitution we're talking about and he wasn't using the word in that way. and you know that.

but congrats on impressing us on your constitutional law knowledge, anyway
 
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