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Respect & Patriotism vs. Free Speech & Protest

BiffTannen said:
I don't recall the part of the pledge where there's any suggestion that "liberty and justice for all" is a goal. It's just a statement that that's what we have, when we don't. The nation is also declared "under God," which runs counter to the first amendment.
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ImTheCaptain said:
i understand but it's not the constitution we're talking about and he wasn't using the word in that way. and you know that.

but congrats on impressing us on your constitutional law knowledge, anyway
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Forgive me for assuming that if someone mentions the first amendment to the constitution they are talking about the first amendment to the constitution.
 
Junebug said:
That is not a proper use of the word "establishment" as used in the constitution. The pledge establishes neither a religion nor religion writ large.
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I disagree with you.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
This is Colin's entire premise about standing and honoring the flag. It's not about the symbol at all. It's about the America behind it.

Instead of looking at the actual problems that he is trying to "raise awareness" about, people are just stopping at the symbolizing of him and the flag itself.
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But he's trying to raise awareness about an issue that everyone is already extremely aware of. We've been talking constantly about race for probably 40-50 years....and doing things to solve problems the entire time. This isn't the era of Jackie Robinson or Ali, the two he's getting compared to, when racial issues were taboo.

It's hard to tell what his goal of "justice" really means. We are now defining racial "injustice" in terms of microaggression and unconscious bias.....to rationalize what amounts to pretty small statistical differences in data about violence. Is that really what this is all about?
 
Kaepernick's birth mother.

 
pourdeac said:
But he's trying to raise awareness about an issue that everyone is already extremely aware of. We've been talking constantly about race for probably 40-50 years....and doing things to solve problems the entire time. This isn't the era of Jackie Robinson or Ali, the two he's getting compared to, when racial issues were taboo.

It's hard to tell what his goal of "justice" really means. We are now defining racial "injustice" in terms of microaggression and unconscious bias.....to rationalize what amounts to pretty small statistical differences in data about violence. Is that really what this is all about?
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To counter that point, non-white Americans have been saying - shouting - for years about injustice at the hands of the police, and those shouts have mostly fallen on deaf ears. It's become a flashpoint of late mostly because of the ubiquity of cameras on mobile devices. The physical evidence of this kind of treatment has changed the conversation entirely. It's not just the small number of unarmed non-white suspects getting shot - it's the harassment and suspicion. Distrust begets distrust.
 
pourdeac said:
But he's trying to raise awareness about an issue that everyone is already extremely aware of. We've been talking constantly about race for probably 40-50 years....and doing things to solve problems the entire time. This isn't the era of Jackie Robinson or Ali, the two he's getting compared to, when racial issues were taboo.

It's hard to tell what his goal of "justice" really means. We are now defining racial "injustice" in terms of microaggression and unconscious bias.....to rationalize what amounts to pretty small statistical differences in data about violence. Is that really what this is all about?
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I'm guessing he is including: policing discrimination based on race, prosecutorial discrimination based on race (3x length of sentences for people of color for same crimes as the white population), disproportionate mandatory sentencing for African-Americans vs. Whites for the same crimes, the racial disparity wealth, targeting of subprime lending by banks at much higher rates in African-American populations, etc.

I can keep going on, but no, it's not just about "pretty small statistical differences in data about violence."

I agree with you about the "raising awareness". Almost everybody is aware of it, but very few actually put actions in place of words. He's not appealing to any racists or people who, no matter what, are still going to discriminate openly (or be openly racist for that matter). What he is trying to "raise awareness" of is the implicit and unconscious bias that EVERYBODY has (including black people), and come to an understanding that it still disproportionately and systematically impacts people of color in 2016.

It's also about getting people who are not black to understand that, yes, even today, people of color, almost no matter what, are going to be viewed as a lesser person because of the color of their skin. No amount of fame, money, success, being "raised white", or a law-abiding citizen will change that.
 
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Deacsfan27 said:
I'm guessing he is including: policing discrimination based on race, prosecutorial discrimination based on race (3x length of sentences for people of color for same crimes as the white population), increased mandatory sentencing for African-Americans vs. Whites for the same crimes, the racial disparity wealth, targeting of subprime lending by banks at much higher rates in African-American populations, etc.

I can keep going on, but no, it's not just about "pretty small statistical differences in data about violence."

I agree with you about the "raising awareness". Almost everybody is aware of it, but very few actually put actions in place of words. He's not appealing to any racists or people who, no matter what, are still going to discriminate openly (or be openly racist for that matter). What he is trying to "raise awareness" of is the implicit and unconscious bias that EVERYBODY has (including black people), and come to an understanding that it still disproportionately and systematically impacts people of color in 2016.
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Say whah?
 
I'm not interested in getting into a "gotcha" game on this. I don't necessarily agree with he way he chose to portray his views, but I'm not going to dismiss the fact that the substance he is protesting is something we all should look at and see how we can address it.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
It's also about getting people who are not black to understand that, yes, even today, people of color, almost no matter what, are going to be viewed as a lesser person because of the color of their skin. No amount of fame, money, success, being "raised white", or a law-abiding citizen will change that.
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I disagree with this. Not saying that there are not a few people out there that still think this way. I don't know any and I doubt there is any large number of people that still think this way out side of some redneck enclaves.
 
CantStandYa said:
To counter that point, non-white Americans have been saying - shouting - for years about injustice at the hands of the police, and those shouts have mostly fallen on deaf ears. It's become a flashpoint of late mostly because of the ubiquity of cameras on mobile devices. The physical evidence of this kind of treatment has changed the conversation entirely. It's not just the small number of unarmed non-white suspects getting shot - it's the harassment and suspicion. Distrust begets distrust.
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If that were true then how do you explain the fact that police departments have undergone many changes over the years to improve race problems, including the promotion and hiring of non-whites into the police force, including many positions of power? How do you explain the findings by Obama DOJ which have concluded that in most investigations of departments, overt racism was not even apparent....they rationalized problems as "unconscous bias"?

If all of these problems were falling on deaf ears, that would not have happened. The "deaf ear" argument really makes no sense. And as even you point out, it's been a flashpoint probably because of cameras and in the news constantly. Everyone is hyper aware of the possibility that problems exist.

But things have obviously changed dramatically for the better. Sure, cameras are providing evidence that individual problems might exist but extrapolating that to something larger when the data just doesn't support it is not very realistic. The data shows far more issues within the community than between them and the police....it just does. And like in the Gray situation, people were defining the problem as a racism issue...but 3 of the accused cops were black, a black police chief, black mayor, etc. I never understood that claim.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
I'm guessing he is including: policing discrimination based on race, prosecutorial discrimination based on race (3x length of sentences for people of color for same crimes as the white population), disproportionate mandatory sentencing for African-Americans vs. Whites for the same crimes, the racial disparity wealth, targeting of subprime lending by banks at much higher rates in African-American populations, etc.

I can keep going on, but no, it's not just about "pretty small statistical differences in data about violence."

I agree with you about the "raising awareness". Almost everybody is aware of it, but very few actually put actions in place of words. He's not appealing to any racists or people who, no matter what, are still going to discriminate openly (or be openly racist for that matter). What he is trying to "raise awareness" of is the implicit and unconscious bias that EVERYBODY has (including black people), and come to an understanding that it still disproportionately and systematically impacts people of color in 2016.

It's also about getting people who are not black to understand that, yes, even today, people of color, almost no matter what, are going to be viewed as a lesser person because of the color of their skin. No amount of fame, money, success, being "raised white", or a law-abiding citizen will change that.
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We can all argue about the issues you raise, because some might be real, others have been debunked as racial (like the speeding ticket issue) and/or are problems that all poorer people encounter (not racial)....but this is what he said: "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." He is talking about physical violence. He's claiming there is an intentional war on blacks by the police.

Over the past 2 years everyone in this country was made aware of that possibility because we are all sensitive about racial problems and most want to fix real problems if they exist. We watched all of these brutality cases/claims. I have no doubt people were scared it might be true given what was going on 50 years ago so we took a hard look at the evidence. I don't see how any reasonable person could claim a war on blacks is happening.
 
pourdeac said:
We can all argue about the issues you raise, because some might be real, others have been debunked as racial (like the speeding ticket issue) and/or are problems that all poorer people encounter (not racial)....but this is what he said: "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder." He is talking about physical violence. He's claiming there is an intentional war on blacks by the police.

Over the past 2 years everyone in this country was made aware of that possibility because we are all sensitive about racial problems and most want to fix real problems if they exist. We watched all of these brutality cases/claims. I have no doubt people were scared it might be true given what was going on 50 years ago so we took a hard look at the evidence. I don't see how any reasonable person could claim a war on blacks is happening.
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He is not saying there is an "intentional war" on blacks by police. He is saying that police officers are getting away with "murder" and put on paid leave. The latter is definitively happening, and the former has been both true and not because "murder" is a legal term.

What were the return on those "looks at the evidence"? That black people aren't being profiled by police officers? The only thorough investigation I saw as the Baltimore PD one, and that definitively showed that they were---even worse than most people thought.

Regardless of the way Kaepernick chose to stage his protest, it obviously got people talking about it---a lot about the symbol, but some good talk on why he said it and the substance at hand too. In that realm I consider what he did a success.
 
knowell said:
I disagree with this. Not saying that there are not a few people out there that still think this way. I don't know any and I doubt there is any large number of people that still think this way out side of some redneck enclaves.
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A lot of my family still thinks this way and Raleigh/Winston-Salem isn't a "redneck enclave". I think it's a lot more prevalent than you think, and certainly not a "few".

How many is too many before it's a problem?
 
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