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Respect & Patriotism vs. Free Speech & Protest

jhmd2000 said:
I think we'd have concurrence if these could be flipped. As extensively noted, racism is a factor, but I believe the role of the macro is played by what you do, more so than what you look like. Again, exhaust yourselves decrying my naiveté (and here come the "Well, when I lived in a duplex off of Cherry Street...stories), I just don't operate with palpable, persistent fear of racism as a driving factor.
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no shit, whitey. I think that black people are trying to say that their experience in America is a wee bit different from yours. Shocking, I know. Your attemt to make this about laziness or race baiting is disappointing. The man is trying to make this point and you are just shaking your head saying he (and other blacks like Charlotte) just have it all wrong and need to act right, like you do, and their experience here will be like yours.
 
WakeandBake said:
no shit, whitey. I think that black people are trying to say that their experience in America is a wee bit different from yours. Shocking, I know. Your attemt to make this about laziness or race baiting is disappointing. The man is trying to make this point and you are just shaking your head saying he (and other blacks like Charlotte) just have it all wrong and need to act right, like you do, and their experience here will be like yours.
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I'm stunned and amazed that you didn't give my argument a fair characterization.

I'm at about 8,000 miles on my oil (don't worry, it's synthetic). Do you think I should change it, or should I protest instead?
 
jhmd2000 said:
I'm stunned and amazed that you didn't give my argument a fair characterization.

I'm at about 8,000 miles on my oil (don't worry, it's synthetic). Do you think I should change it, or should I protest instead?
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Your argument is shit, frankly. All you have done is say that 1) protesting racism is futile, 2) mistreatment of blacks at the hands of police is not racist, it is about economic class and that 3) Charlotte doesnt understand her own experience.


But we can stop, i understand your position precisely, I just wanted you to write it out for clarity. thanks, man
 
WakeandBake said:
Your argument is shit, frankly. All you have done is say that 1) protesting racism is futile, 2) mistreatment of blacks at the hands of police is not racist, it is about economic class and that 3) Charlotte doesnt understand
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Crap. I guess I will have to protest my oil. Here I was all ready to change it, and then you swooped in to save the day. That was a close one, thanks!

eta: Since I'm new to this protest deal, does that work with your newborn's diapers? Let's say he really loads one up, what do you do...draw a couple of protest signs, gin up a hashtag and go all #saveourturds?
 
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jhmd2000 said:
I think we'd have concurrence if these could be flipped. As extensively noted, racism is a factor, but I believe the role of the macro is played by what you do, more so than what you look like. Again, exhaust yourselves decrying my naiveté (and here come the "Well, when I lived in a duplex off of Cherry Street...stories), I just don't operate with palpable, persistent fear of racism as a driving factor.
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I want to make sure I'm clear with my use of micro vs macro. At the micro (individual level) yes everyone is responsible for their own actions and by and large if they stick to your oft cited playbook, they'll probably be fine. However when I talk about the macro I'm saying that with the persistence of systemic racism as noted in FPD and BPD investigations you will undoubtedly have a higher percentage of people that fall out of line. And if we can eliminate this, more people will stay with your playbook. Your view seems so binary which is easy to apply to an individual but I think you lose sight of what will naturally happen when you negatively influence an entire group.
 
bmoneydeac said:
I want to make sure I'm clear with my use of micro vs macro. At the micro (individual level) yes everyone is responsible for their own actions and by and large if they stick to your oft cited playbook, they'll probably be fine. However when I talk about the macro I'm saying that with the persistence of systemic racism as noted in FPD and BPD investigations you will undoubtedly have a higher percentage of people that fall out of line. And if we can eliminate this, more people will stay with your playbook. Your view seems so binary which is easy to apply to an individual but I think you lose sight of what will naturally happen when you negatively influence an entire group.
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First, you draw an important distinction in your definitions, thank you for clarifying. I don't think it changes the answers but I see what you're saying, and you are clearly right.

Do you believe conservatives are in favor of racism by police departments? We all agree that we should eliminate racism from police departments (school admissions awaits full concurrence, of course).

The breakpoint is the proportion of the messaging. I don't think people---black, white and ginger---are well-served by an unpunctuated drumbeat about the "macro", and are much better served by a message that focuses on the "micro." I get that it makes for good politics during an election year with two trash candidates, but I truly, madly, deeply think that there are only so many times you can beat somebody over the head with the "See! See! the system hates you, and it's out to get you!" before you stop serving their interest.*

* In a weak and cynical moment, I admit I do see how that message benefits old white Democrats running for office and young, smug white Democrats on message boards in full look-at-meeee regalia.
 
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Well, there is a difference between being pro or against racism by police departments (can't imagine anybody would be pro) and being pro or against police department reform. A lot of people for the former are against the latter, which gets to the heart of this issue, IMO.
 
And I'd also add that most movements combine the micro and macro in their strategy and analysis. Just because protests are the visible "tips of the iceberg" doesn't mean that the people doing the everyday work of activism/advocacy/reform aren't attending to both.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
WakeandBake said:
Your argument is shit, frankly. All you have done is say that 1) protesting racism is futile, 2) mistreatment of blacks at the hands of police is not racist, it is about economic class and that 3) Charlotte doesnt understand her own experience.


But we can stop, i understand your position precisely, I just wanted you to write it out for clarity. thanks, man
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good summation

jhmd2000 said:
Crap. I guess I will have to protest my oil. Here I was all ready to change it, and then you swooped in to save the day. That was a close one, thanks!

eta: Since I'm new to this protest deal, does that work with your newborn's diapers? Let's say he really loads one up, what do you do...draw a couple of protest signs, gin up a hashtag and go all #saveourturds?
Click to expand...

complete non sequitur

I think this one's over.
 
I'll be honest. Until I did my own research (at the direction of many esteemed board members) I don't think I understood what extent police behavior could affect minority communities. We get hung up in the shootings which are awful in their own right. However there is typically just enough murkiness in them to be dismissed by both the legal system and a majority of people. It's the death by papercuts piece that should resonate more and people don't seem to care.
 
I think dismissing people's concerns, even in a weak and cynical moment, as "look at me regalia" is counter productive to any valid argument that may or may not have been put forward. It attacks the messenger rather than the message which seems to be: there are issues of race present which could (maybe even should) be addressed and to a large extent we as a society choose to do nothing about it. Or as Strickland pointed out, lots of people say that they think there is a problem with police departments and how they handle race relations but there are far fewer people who advocate for viable changes to the status quo in said police departments. Why the disconnect?

ETA: While it may be easier to categorize what is, likely, sympathy and an attempt to understand problems that others in society may experience as "look at me"-ism, "pandering," or "white guilt," again I don't think this is particular productive. Similarly, I admit that categorizing opposing view points as "typical old white guy" viewpoints is not likely productive either - except to the degree that it identifies the general demographic of those opposed to altering the status quo referenced above. Regardless, this creates an "us v. them" dichotomy that hinders productive conversation.
 
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