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Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: Commander will kill us all

some of y'all act like ICE is some bedrock institution

it's like 15 years old, a reactionary post-9/11 measure to create an anti-immigrant militia
 
some of y'all act like ICE is some bedrock institution

it's like 15 years old, a reactionary post-9/11 measure to create an anti-immigrant militia

“Abolish ICE” is stupid because it doesn’t mean anything. You could dismantle the agency and then create an entirely new one with most of the same people and policies and technically you’ve “abolished ICE.” Or you could completely overhaul the agency and implement significant reforms without technically “abolishing ICE.”

I think ICE needs to be completely dismantled, but’s that’s an implementation of policy, not a policy itself.
 
I just think that speaks to our political environment where nothing means anything. “Access to Affordable healthcare” “Medicare for All”, “small business” “tax reform”, all either are meaningless or get muddied. I have some abolish ice swag so I’m obviously biased, and to me it means completely dismantling it along with abolishing prisons. And abolishing borders. If you mean it’s stupid as a political slogan, because it got watered down by liberals who still want ICE as a function, then i agree. It’s still important for me to abolish it as an institution.
 
I think the consideration of ICE as simply just a necessary immigration enforcement agency is astoundingly naive and ignorant. ICE was created in the paranoid fervor of post 9/11 as the nationalist para-military arm of homeland security. Yes of course the INS did fucked up shit, and was bad, but ICE is not the INS.
 
I think the consideration of ICE as simply just a necessary immigration enforcement agency is astoundingly naive and ignorant. ICE was created in the paranoid fervor of post 9/11 as the nationalist para-military arm of homeland security. Yes of course the INS did fucked up shit, and was bad, but ICE is not the INS.

It shows how quickly norms can change in politics. That’s a good thing for people who want rapid change.
 
I just think that speaks to our political environment where nothing means anything. “Access to Affordable healthcare” “Medicare for All”, “small business” “tax reform”, all either are meaningless or get muddied. I have some abolish ice swag so I’m obviously biased, and to me it means completely dismantling it along with abolishing prisons. And abolishing borders. If you mean it’s stupid as a political slogan, because it got watered down by liberals who still want ICE as a function, then i agree. It’s still important for me to abolish it as an institution.

I just mean that it sounds stupid. And if it’s also supposed to mean abolishing prisons and borders then it doesn’t communicate a clear message.
 
I think the consideration of ICE as simply just a necessary immigration enforcement agency is astoundingly naive and ignorant. ICE was created in the paranoid fervor of post 9/11 as the nationalist para-military arm of homeland security. Yes of course the INS did fucked up shit, and was bad, but ICE is not the INS.

I agree with that.
 
I just think that speaks to our political environment where nothing means anything. “Access to Affordable healthcare” “Medicare for All”, “small business” “tax reform”, all either are meaningless or get muddied. I have some abolish ice swag so I’m obviously biased, and to me it means completely dismantling it along with abolishing prisons. And abolishing borders. If you mean it’s stupid as a political slogan, because it got watered down by liberals who still want ICE as a function, then i agree. It’s still important for me to abolish it as an institution.

“Medicare for All” means something. Agree on the others.

I’m all for being anti-ICE, anti-prisons, and anti-borders (to an extent), but I’d like to see the far left of the party focus more on what they are for: “Medicare for All”, “$15 minimum wage”, etc.
 
Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: Blue Wave Edition

Did I miss something? I remember the abolish ICE slogan and hearing it occasionally, but I never would have said it was a center piece of the Democrat's or even the far lefts campaign. It seems hardly worth discussing.
 
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Throwing the slogan out there as an example of Democratic Party ineptitude and shitty campaign tactics seems hardly worth discussing because it was hardly a campaign issue. Schumer isn’t going back on any big promises that the Dems made because it was barely an issue during the campaign and it definitely wasn’t a party wide slogan. I am getting tired of hearing this repeated notion that Democrats suck at messaging and are going to fuck up the 2020 election. They just had the biggest wave election since the 1970’s; as a party it seems like they are on the right track.

Discussing the merits of abolishing ICE, on the other hand, is a worthwhile discussion. The agency’s purpose has definitely been abused in the last two years. But in the last month the Administration has gone far beyond using ICE to abuse its power to intimidate brown people and stoke fear amongst older whites by deploying the military to the southern border. The issue that people are upset about with ICE is bigger than just ICE.
 
Throwing the slogan out there as an example of Democratic Party ineptitude and shitty campaign tactics seems hardly worth discussing because it was hardly a campaign issue. Schumer isn’t going back on any big promises that the Dems made because it was barely an issue during the campaign and it definitely wasn’t a party wide slogan. I am getting tired of hearing this repeated notion that Democrats suck at messaging and are going to fuck up the 2020 election. They just had the biggest wave election since the 1970’s; as a party it seems like they are on the right track.

Discussing the merits of abolishing ICE, on the other hand, is a worthwhile discussion. The agency’s purpose has definitely been abused in the last two years. But in the last month the Administration has gone far beyond using ICE to abuse its power to intimidate brown people and stoke fear amongst older whites by deploying the military to the southern border. The issue that people are upset about with ICE is bigger than just ICE.
I think maybe you just werent paying as close attention to the candidates who ran on abolishing ICE
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...gn-slogan-candidates-both-parties/1729041002/

'Abolish ICE': Candidates in both parties wield this immigration campaign slogan to excite supporters
 
I think maybe you just werent paying as close attention to the candidates who ran on abolishing ICE
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...gn-slogan-candidates-both-parties/1729041002/

'Abolish ICE': Candidates in both parties wield this immigration campaign slogan to excite supporters

I read that article and it looks to me like the Pubs made this more of an issue than the Dems in the general election. Also this comment stood out to me: “Pocan said nobody in a competitive race is campaigning on abolishing ICE, but rather focusing on health care and jobs, and against corruption.”
 
I read that article and it looks to me like the Pubs made this more of an issue than the Dems in the general election. Also this comment stood out to me: “Pocan said nobody in a competitive race is campaigning on abolishing ICE, but rather focusing on health care and jobs, and against corruption.”
I acknowledge that it wasn't a headline issue in competitive races, but it was still broadly supported by a number of Dems, as a specific slogan or as a condemnation of current immigration practices. It may not be a tipping point platform plank, but its still very important - and it's very clear what the young progressive stance is on the issue.
 
I acknowledge that it wasn't a headline issue in competitive races, but it was still broadly supported by a number of Dems, as a specific slogan or as a condemnation of current immigration practices. It may not be a tipping point platform plank, but its still very important - and it's very clear what the young progressive stance is on the issue.

And that's why it's a dumb slogan. If they want to reform immigration, say so.

It's like promoting sentencing reform with the slogan "abolish judges".
 
A chance to elevate Lee in leadership and they go with the lover of charter schools, NYC-Cuomo party machine guy.

 
[h=1]Chuck Schumer Is Greatly Overestimating Trump’s Popularity[/h] [h=2]The midterms were a stunning referendum. Democratic leaders should act accordingly.[/h]https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/11/donald-trump-unpopularity-chuck-schumer.html

The Democrats’ record-breaking victory and the public’s clear exhaustion with Donald Trump should prompt a full re-evaluation of this political moment. Instead, when faced with Trump’s demand for $5 billion in funding for his border wall with Mexico, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer offered the $1.6 billion that Democrats had previously agreed on. This may not constitute support for “the wall” itself, but it does miss how the landscape has changed. The president’s immigration policies are unpopular. Schumer had political space to make a lower bid, or no bid at all. But he doesn’t seem to grasp the extent of his party’s political advantage or understand the value of opposition. He seems stuck in a past where voters rewarded compromise and bipartisanship, unable to see how this doesn’t apply to the Democrats’ relationship with Donald Trump.

Bold prediction. If Schumer runs for re-election in 2024, AOC will primary him.

Bolder prediction. If she wins, she will be on the short list of 2028 frontrunners.
 
[h=1]Chuck Schumer Is Greatly Overestimating Trump’s Popularity[/h] [h=2]The midterms were a stunning referendum. Democratic leaders should act accordingly.[/h]https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/11/donald-trump-unpopularity-chuck-schumer.html



Bold prediction. If Schumer runs for re-election in 2024, AOC will primary him.

Bolder prediction. If she wins, she will be on the short list of 2028 frontrunners.
That is a bold prediction
 
I don't know if that's what she's planning to do, but she's certainly doing what she needs to do to make it happen.
 
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