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Wake Forest Football Recruiting

I get what you're saying, but coaching absolutely matters as much as recruiting. Clemson is a horrible example of this considering they have elite levels of both. A better example:

FSU recruiting >>> Wake recruiting

FSU coaching (Taggert) <<< Wake coaching (Clawson)

Results have been about the same the last few years, maybe even better for Wake.

Yeah, I may have overstated it. And you're picking out one of the worst coaching performances most people have seen in decades. Recruiting also declined a bit under Jimbo and those weren't Taggart's players for his "system," whatever that was.

There's also not a huge gap in the player ratings in the 10 ranking spots. Also, when you get down to #40, you're dealing almost exclusively with 3-star recruits, with an occasional 4-star, so there's a ton of hair-splitting going on for the mid to bottom of the ACC in terms of recruiting ranking.
 
Yeah, I may have overstated it. And you're picking out one of the worst coaching performances most people have seen in decades. Recruiting also declined a bit under Jimbo and those weren't Taggart's players for his "system," whatever that was.

There's also not a huge gap in the player ratings in the 10 ranking spots. Also, when you get down to #40, you're dealing almost exclusively with 3-star recruits, with an occasional 4-star, so there's a ton of hair-splitting going on for the mid to bottom of the ACC in terms of recruiting ranking.

That's fair, FSU is an extreme example. But, I think there's still a case to be made there. As for more examples, let's look at some of the overall team recruiting rankings from 2017 (would have been juniors/ redshirt sophs in 2019):

#4: University of So Cal
#6: FSU
#12: Miami
#14: Stanford
#17: Tennessee
#18: Maryland

I have no idea how many players from those recruiting classes transferred or whatever, but it seems to me that bad/mediocre coaching can sometimes overcome good recruiting.

As for your second point, I wholeheartedly agree. The difference between the #40 ranked recruiting class and the #60 one likely comes down mostly to the fact that talent evaluaters for 247 or whatever got to see the recruits in the #40 class more often and/or the 3 stars in the #40 class happened to have more offers from big-name schools.
 
Rivals, 247, or both have class calculators that can show you what it will take to boost a class from #60 to #40.
 
Reportedly, Hough has a QB in their system who they believe will be the next big QB to come out of the Charlotte area, so I doubt Maye returns. I cannot remember the name of the other high school rumored to get Maye, but it was definitely not Hough. I have a friend in the Charlotte area and I asked if Maye might be returning, when I heard the rumor of him leaving MPHS. They said it was highly unlikely he would be returning and he is the one who told me about the other QB at Hough. I agree Maye is losing a lot at MPHS with Rooks and Muhammad both graduating. Charlotte is an area where Wake does not seem to have a lot of success recruiting, but it is likely due to the fact so many of the big boys target that area of the state for their recruiting. I would say that Wake has more success in the area around Atlanta than they do in Charlotte. It gives you an idea as to how much talent there is in the Atlanta area when compared to Charlotte. I remember reading the state of Georgia produces the fourth most football recruits, trailing only California, Texas, and Florida.

It always amazes me how much "recruiting" goes on at the high school level in Charlotte and the surrounding area. It is a dirty business and the top kids seem to move constantly from high school to high school. I am not sure how you put a stop to it and the Charlotte school system is set up in a way that actually allows more of it to occur than it would in other school districts in North Carolina.

No idea if Maye will return. I think the original plan was for him to go back to Hough after his sophomore year, but he stuck around as a junior, probably to play with Muhammed and Rooks this past season, who have now gone on to college. I doubt he's going to get better coaching at a Meck Co school than he's getting at MPHS with Chadwick and Josh McCown. I could see him going to a place like IMG for his senior year and graduating/leaving after December. Also, Josh McCown has two sons who play quarterback who are currently a sophomore and a freshman. I don't know how any of that would play into the decision making.
 
Another factor in Wake recruiting is that Wake needs to get guys who are able and willing to take on the Wake academic workload. I suspect there are many more who would be able to handle the Wake academics than there are those who are willing to do so.

After all, they can hear something like: "43 zebra green hot" and know that the line is in zone blocking, the QB will roll right, the tight end will stay in to block, the slot receiver will run a five yard square out route, the right side wide receiver will run a 10 yard hitch and go post route, the left wide receiver will run a fly route down the left hash marks and the running back will safety valve to the left.

If you put some of the kids in the following scenario:

Freshman student in classroom in math building, handed a sheet of paper with the following:

Geospatial Concepts Course Synopsis


This course will be a rigorous treatment of the concepts of space and position, using 20 or more variables in both constrained and unconstrained configurations. Static positioning, microtranslocations, macrotranslocations and the transitions between static and dynamic operational constructs will be included. There will be standard algorithms for use in predicting behavior of some of the variables in some configurations. Students will need to recognize when these standard algorithms are the appropriate ones and when non-standard approaches to the problems may be required. Students will be expected to use two dimensional spatial models to explain and understand variable placement and dynamics in three dimensional space. Concepts from other disciplines such as meteorology, geology, physics, agronomy and materials sciences will be incorporated into some situations, and may provide additional constraints on some variables. Students will also be expected to make liberal use of our extensive audiovisual laboratory. There will be practicums and group projects in which student groups will demonstrate their understanding of class concepts.


Textbook: Geospatial Concepts: Multivariate Treatment of Static and Dynamic Configurations.

Prof announces that there will be a quiz on the material in chapter 1 at the end of next week.

Some will be in shock, with their eyes saucer sized and jaws on the floor. Wondering what they got themselves into and wondering how to get out quick.

versus this

Position Coach’s office, 8 AM, newly arrived freshman football player


Coach, "Here is your playbook. Here is your list of signals and calls. Learn the first 10 plays by tomorrow. I will see you in the film room at 2 PM. First practice is at 7 tomorrow morning. It is supposed to rain. Wear long cleats."

players response: "got it coach. See you at 2."

The two scenarios are actually equivalent, just that I attempted to employ polysyllabic descriptive terminology in scenario one and used few short words in scenario 2.

The first is the perception of Wake Forest. And it carries far and wide. When Ish Smith met with the Washington area Wake alums after the Hawks Wizards game, even he referred to Wake as "Work Forest."

Clawson and company have to find the kids who would see scenario 1 as an opportunity, not an obstacle.
 
got three more official visits this weekend with two grad transfers visiting per Les. Must have some scholarships available.
 
That's fair, FSU is an extreme example. But, I think there's still a case to be made there. As for more examples, let's look at some of the overall team recruiting rankings from 2017 (would have been juniors/ redshirt sophs in 2019):

#4: University of So Cal
#6: FSU
#12: Miami
#14: Stanford
#17: Tennessee
#18: Maryland

I have no idea how many players from those recruiting classes transferred or whatever, but it seems to me that bad/mediocre coaching can sometimes overcome good recruiting.

As for your second point, I wholeheartedly agree. The difference between the #40 ranked recruiting class and the #60 one likely comes down mostly to the fact that talent evaluaters for 247 or whatever got to see the recruits in the #40 class more often and/or the 3 stars in the #40 class happened to have more offers from big-name schools.

Agreed. If the outliers are removed (the top 5 and bottom 5 teams in regards to recruit rankings), there is essentially no correlation between average recruiting class ranking and number of wins, between the recruiting classes ranked 6 to 59. Here is the graph for 4 years of win totals (X axis) and 4 years of recruiting rankings (y axis):

GrlPE1h.jpg
 
Last edited:
Agreed. If the outliers are removed (the top 5 and bottom 5 teams in regards to recruit rankings), there is essentially no correlation between average recruiting class ranking and number of wins, between the recruiting classes ranked 6 to 59. Here is the graph for 4 years of win totals (X axis) and 4 years of recruiting rankings (y axis):

GrlPE1h


https://imgur.com/GrlPE1h


Looks like a shotgun graph.
 
Agreed. If the outliers are removed (the top 5 and bottom 5 teams in regards to recruit rankings), there is essentially no correlation between average recruiting class ranking and number of wins, between the recruiting classes ranked 6 to 59. Here is the graph for 4 years of win totals (X axis) and 4 years of recruiting rankings (y axis):

GrlPE1h.jpg

while interesting, it would seem that Sagarin ratings or some other measure would be a better x axis than #wins

Of those top 8 2020 recruiting classes Biff mentioned, 4 are in the SEC West (and two in the SEC East)

meaning, for example, Auburn could parlay its top 8 recruiting ranking into being one of the best 8 teams in the nation, but still lose to 5 superior teams on its schedule (AL/aTm/LSU/UGA/UF)

Conversely, someone in CUSA is winning a lot of conference games, even if they are nowhere near as good of a team
 
IIRC the average recruiting ranking for Wake’s last class declined as compared to the previous year. If so, then that isn’t improving each year and it’s indicative of the football staff hitting a plateau with their reciting abilities and algorithm.

Wake lost one of the highest rated 2020 recruits (Whitter) just before December signing day. That hurts. Final results for 2020 won't arrive until Feb.

Wake PWO++ guys are better than ever this year. That can have a bigger impact down the road than it might elsewhere.
 
while interesting, it would seem that Sagarin ratings or some other measure would be a better x axis than #wins

Of those top 8 2020 recruiting classes Biff mentioned, 4 are in the SEC West (and two in the SEC East)

meaning, for example, Auburn could parlay its top 8 recruiting ranking into being one of the best 8 teams in the nation, but still lose to 5 superior teams on its schedule (AL/aTm/LSU/UGA/UF)

Conversely, someone in CUSA is winning a lot of conference games, even if they are nowhere near as good of a team

Good point. That would be interesting too. But these are only P5 teams, so there are no Conference USA or other lower level teams.
 
Not as much as recruiting. If you're saying that Wake outperforms its typical 50-70 recruiting ranking, I'd go along with that. But we're obviously not challenging Clemson right now with our talent level and it wouldn't matter if Clawson is coaching circles around Dabo, you wouldn't be able to tell.

that was my point. and there are 100 teams that cant compete with Clemson's recruiting right now so i will accept that type of company.
 
Nick Sharpe Hunter Huss Gastonia commits 6'3 300 2021 recruit. In Clawson we trust.
 
Another factor in Wake recruiting is that Wake needs to get guys who are able and willing to take on the Wake academic workload. I suspect there are many more who would be able to handle the Wake academics than there are those who are willing to do so.

After all, they can hear something like: "43 zebra green hot" and know that the line is in zone blocking, the QB will roll right, the tight end will stay in to block, the slot receiver will run a five yard square out route, the right side wide receiver will run a 10 yard hitch and go post route, the left wide receiver will run a fly route down the left hash marks and the running back will safety valve to the left.

If you put some of the kids in the following scenario:

Freshman student in classroom in math building, handed a sheet of paper with the following:

Geospatial Concepts Course Synopsis


This course will be a rigorous treatment of the concepts of space and position, using 20 or more variables in both constrained and unconstrained configurations. Static positioning, microtranslocations, macrotranslocations and the transitions between static and dynamic operational constructs will be included. There will be standard algorithms for use in predicting behavior of some of the variables in some configurations. Students will need to recognize when these standard algorithms are the appropriate ones and when non-standard approaches to the problems may be required. Students will be expected to use two dimensional spatial models to explain and understand variable placement and dynamics in three dimensional space. Concepts from other disciplines such as meteorology, geology, physics, agronomy and materials sciences will be incorporated into some situations, and may provide additional constraints on some variables. Students will also be expected to make liberal use of our extensive audiovisual laboratory. There will be practicums and group projects in which student groups will demonstrate their understanding of class concepts.


Textbook: Geospatial Concepts: Multivariate Treatment of Static and Dynamic Configurations.

Prof announces that there will be a quiz on the material in chapter 1 at the end of next week.

Some will be in shock, with their eyes saucer sized and jaws on the floor. Wondering what they got themselves into and wondering how to get out quick.

versus this

Position Coach’s office, 8 AM, newly arrived freshman football player


Coach, "Here is your playbook. Here is your list of signals and calls. Learn the first 10 plays by tomorrow. I will see you in the film room at 2 PM. First practice is at 7 tomorrow morning. It is supposed to rain. Wear long cleats."

players response: "got it coach. See you at 2."

The two scenarios are actually equivalent, just that I attempted to employ polysyllabic descriptive terminology in scenario one and used few short words in scenario 2.

The first is the perception of Wake Forest. And it carries far and wide. When Ish Smith met with the Washington area Wake alums after the Hawks Wizards game, even he referred to Wake as "Work Forest."

Clawson and company have to find the kids who would see scenario 1 as an opportunity, not an obstacle.

this is one of the most incoherent non-rj posts in the history of this board
 
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