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Penn State fraternity murder

palmab03 said:
Says the guy who let a friend drink a half gallon jug of popov for senior fifth day
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You made that decision of your own free will. And we were surrounded by people looking out for just what happened to this kid. So as far as ridiculous binge drinking goes, I think we put ourselves in as good a position as possible for non-terrible outcomes.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
It's about the time where 2and2 and ELC come in to defend the acts at hand.
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Nah I won't defend the actions, but they also don't shock me. You've got a group of guys dumb enough to think they have to buy their forced friendships, it isn't really surprising that other stupid actions will follow. Not exactly dealing with the cream of the crop here, just more Darwinism all the way around.
 
CDeacMan said:
You made that decision of your own free will. And we were surrounded by people looking out for just what happened to this kid. So as far as ridiculous binge drinking goes, I think we put ourselves in as good a position as possible for non-terrible outcomes.
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I recall one kid choosing to pass out voluntarily in the back of a cop car and two more passing out on the floor of the front room of your sugar crack apartment.

Good looking out


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wakephan09 said:
Fixed it for you.

We should just make the drinking age 18. Would cut out a lot of these shenanigans.
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The guys didn't call the cops because they were worried about the hazing repercussions (social probation, loss of charter, etc), not getting underage drinking/providing alcohol to minors tickets.
 
What the fuck is wrong with these people? You join a fraternity for the brotherhood. A common bond. Yeah, I know that it's unrealistic to believe that you're going to like everyone in the frat, but why would you want to be brothers with people who abuse you, demoralize you, or embarrass you as part of an accepted initiation proceeding? I know that some of these idiots have the mentality of "someone did it to me, so I'm going to do it to someone else, " but that's total bullshit and nothing but a revenge laden power-trip. And with all the shit that can rain down on you nowadays, you'd think that fraternities would be smarter about the consumption, voluntary or involuntary, of alcohol during initiations, but apparently not. I heard of some of the degrading shit that some of my friends went through during initiations at other frats, WF included, and I'm surprised that they went through with it. Bottom line is that abuse and degradation is no kind of "bond" to have between "brothers." That's not what Greek life was supposed to be about.
 
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timdunkandthefunk said:
The guys didn't call the cops because they were worried about the hazing repercussions (social probation, loss of charter, etc), not getting underage drinking/providing alcohol to minors tickets.
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I thought the article implied that both were potential worries. Regardless, my point was less that hazing in this case wasn't the ultimate cause, but more that fraternity life and its concomitant problems would be mitigated to some degree if drinking were legal at 18.
 
DemonDEKEn said:
What the fuck is wrong with these people? You join a fraternity for the brotherhood. A common bond. Yeah, I know that it's unrealistic to believe that you're going to like everyone in the frat, but why would you want to be brothers with people who abuse you, demoralize you, or embarrass you as part of an accepted initiation proceeding? I know that some of these idiots have the mentality of "someone did it to me, so I'm going to do it to someone else, " but that's total bullshit and nothing but a revenge laden power-trip. And with all the shit that can rain down on you nowadays, you'd think that fraternities would be smarter about the consumption, voluntary or involuntary, of alcohol during initiations, but apparently not. I heard of some of the degrading shit that some of my friends went through during initiations at other frats, WF included, and I'm surprised that they went through with it. Bottom line is that abuse and degradation is no kind of "bond" to have between "brothers." That's not what Greek life was supposed to be about.
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Your second and third sentence explain the first sentence. They are going into it with the mentality of forcing (and paying for) something that is apparently not there naturally. It is all downhill from there. This isn't the fucking Navy Seals (or hell even a high school sports team), where shared experience creates legit bonds, it is some drunk dickbags trying to manufacture life experiences.
 
once went to this pretentious wedding 'reception' at an art museum for this this trust fund, white-caste brazilian dude and his yoga instructor wife (friend of wife). we were some of the last to hang out and at like, 3 AM, i remember this guy started into this drunken speech about the importance of enhancing one's vocab and learning a new word every day and that day it was fucking "concomitant"
 
Deacsfan27 said:
It's about the time where 2and2 and ELC come in to defend the acts at hand.
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Defend it, no. Do I understand that kids that age do stupid things and may react in a way that think ensures self-preservation when things don't go as planned? Absolutely. You had one kid in the whole fraternity who appeared to have some sense, and frankly he seemed like a bit of a nerd who nobody probably listens to most of the time. It sucks that a whole bunch of them are going to have their lives ruined for not exercising good judgment at an age when most people do not exercise it on a regular basis and while they themselves were probably also intoxicated. I'm guessing that the people who will be found most culpable though will be the ones who forced the drinks down his throat and maybe the people who actually witnessed the fall and could comprehend the severity of it. A bunch of also-drunk kids who hear that he got drunk and fell down some stairs and make a halfassed attempt to wake him up are too detached from the situation to be held criminally liable, in my opinion.

All involved share some responsibility, to include the dead kid, though his share is much, much less than the others. Call it frat culture or drinking culture or whatever you want to call it-- doesn't matter. It's just stupid beyond the bounds of regular stupidity. As somebody who has been hitting drinking establishments longer than many of you have been alive and dealt with 3 years of partying hard in a frat at Wake, I've never understood the need to force an absurd amount of drinks into somebody, not even a pledge. Make them do a kegstand at a tailgate or help you drink your beers or a bottle of Beam over an interview or something. Haze them with some moderately humiliating activity. None of those things should end up with a trip to the ER or even put one in a position to be hospitalized or in trouble with the popo.
 
ImTheCaptain said:
once went to this pretentious wedding 'reception' at an art museum for this this trust fund, white-caste brazilian dude and his yoga instructor wife (friend of wife). we were some of the last to hang out and at like, 3 AM, i remember this guy started into this drunken speech about the importance of enhancing one's vocab and learning a new word every day and that day it was fucking "concomitant"
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Good story. I'm not married to a yoga instructor (yet).
 
DemonDEKEn said:
What the fuck is wrong with these people? You join a fraternity for the brotherhood. A common bond. Yeah, I know that it's unrealistic to believe that you're going to like everyone in the frat, but why would you want to be brothers with people who abuse you, demoralize you, or embarrass you as part of an accepted initiation proceeding? I know that some of these idiots have the mentality of "someone did it to me, so I'm going to do it to someone else, " but that's total bullshit and nothing but a revenge laden power-trip. And with all the shit that can rain down on you nowadays, you'd think that fraternities would be smarter about the consumption, voluntary or involuntary, of alcohol during initiations, but apparently not. I heard of some of the degrading shit that some of my friends went through during initiations at other frats, WF included, and I'm surprised that they went through with it. Bottom line is that abuse and degradation is no kind of "bond" to have between "brothers." That's not what Greek life was supposed to be about.
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Interesting post, given your user name. I was pleasantly surprised that something terrible (that became a big news story) didn't happen at that house during my 4 years.
 
OblongPickle said:
That's the point. I personally saw friends go through hazing at Wake that was WAYYY over the top, and they were well beyond a safe level of alcohol consumption. The system needs changing if it is seen as just another pledge drinking too much. Find ways to 'haze' or initiate members that don't involve such drastic levels of alcohol consumption.

It's too much, and should NEVER be treated as too commonplace or typical to fix.
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I bet your fun to party with. The kid chose to drink, and is responsible for what happened afterward. Not the frats fault.
 
WFcatamount22 said:
I bet your fun to party with. The kid chose to drink, and is responsible for what happened afterward. Not the frats fault.
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Seriously? The fact that nobody called an ambulance after the dude fell down the stairs is not the frat's fault?
 
DemonDEKEn said:
What the fuck is wrong with these people? You join a fraternity for the brotherhood. A common bond. Yeah, I know that it's unrealistic to believe that you're going to like everyone in the frat, but why would you want to be brothers with people who abuse you, demoralize you, or embarrass you as part of an accepted initiation proceeding? I know that some of these idiots have the mentality of "someone did it to me, so I'm going to do it to someone else, " but that's total bullshit and nothing but a revenge laden power-trip. And with all the shit that can rain down on you nowadays, you'd think that fraternities would be smarter about the consumption, voluntary or involuntary, of alcohol during initiations, but apparently not. I heard of some of the degrading shit that some of my friends went through during initiations at other frats, WF included, and I'm surprised that they went through with it. Bottom line is that abuse and degradation is no kind of "bond" to have between "brothers." That's not what Greek life was supposed to be about.
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Excellent post. As a former WFU fraternity President for two years, I could not agree more. Thankfully, the classes before me were the biggest advocates of not repeating the "someone did it to me, so I'm going to do it to someone else" cycle.
 
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