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Spurs Thread

This is what the article says without him playing the 5th year: "So in summary: $26 million in state taxes on $200 million of earnings if Paul stays in California (net of $174 million); $2 million in state taxes on $152 million if Paul heads to Texas (net of $150 million)."

But this does not include playing the fifth year. If he he is willing to play for the MLE, you'd subtract it from that number not add it.

If he doesn't play the fifth year, they stay home bonus is less than the difference in state taxes. Thus, he would profit by going to SA.

You are simply wrong and the article is wrong not to compare apples to apples - 4 years to 4 years or 5 years to 5 years with a reasonable salary for Chris in Year 5.

I know you'll move the goalposts like you did above in feigning ignorance of the difference between vet minimum and MLE or that Chris would get paid well for that year.

You won't be able to help yourself and admit that I know more about this than you do.

Let it go. You failed to read (a common theme) the article or subsequent posts about the article and then made an hysterical post challenging my correct assertion that the net difference in guaranteed money between the two deals is $35 million."

Once you read the article and understood the conversation going on you made some good points regarding things the article didn't address. Other than "he'll have a bigger spotlight in San Antonio," your arguments have gone unchallenged.

Next time catch up on the conversation (which consisted of one article and two posts) before responding so we don't have to spend two pages explaining it to you and then two pages trying to get you back on topic because your fragile ego has been damaged.
 
It's all a moot point if he gets traded and won't have to forfeit any salary to go to Houston.
 
Let it go. You failed to read (a common theme) the article or subsequent posts about the article and then made an hysterical post challenging my correct assertion that the net difference in guaranteed money between the two deals is $35 million."

Once you read the article and understood the conversation going on you made some good points regarding things the article didn't address. Other than "he'll have a bigger spotlight in San Antonio," your arguments have gone unchallenged.

Next time catch up on the conversation (which consisted of one article and two posts) before responding so we don't have to spend two pages explaining it to you and then two pages trying to get you back on topic because your fragile ego has been damaged.

You said this:

"The difference in net guaranteed money, after accounting for state income tax, is ~$35 million. Read the article"

As usual, you move the goalposts when are empirically proven wrong. The article shows the number is more like $19M nothing close to $35M.

It's also a totally ridiculous concept to compare a four year contract to a five year one. It's as ridiculous as you saying he'd had to play for the veteran's minimum in year five. Oops, after showing your ignorance of this, you changed to the MLE. This is also preposterous.

But you can't admit I am right and you are wrong.

It's really about who you are.
 
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He wouldn't fit at all with Harden, who needs and demands the ball.

Not sure about that. Harden was really too deferential in 2016, then in 2017 D'Antoni asked him to play PG full time. Putting the ball in Harden's hands all the time was D'Antoni's idea, not Harden's.

But yes, I agree that Harden does better with the ball than without it. (Hence, D'Antoni's big idea.)
 
He wouldn't fit at all with Harden, who needs and demands the ball.
That's what they said about Monroe and Frazier, Lebron and Wade etc. Great players figure out. CP3 has never played with other guards who can create their own shot other than team USA. Guess we will see how this duo plays out.
 
Not sure about that. Harden was really too deferential in 2016, then in 2017 D'Antoni asked him to play PG full time. Putting the ball in Harden's hands all the time was D'Antoni's idea, not Harden's.

But yes, I agree that Harden does better with the ball than without it. (Hence, D'Antoni's big idea.)

Harden is more of a scorer than a shooter. A scorer needs the ball. A scorer can pass, but he has to have the ball to do it

Harden is an average shooter. If Chris goes there, it's a waste of Harden's pride.
 
You said this:

"The difference in net guaranteed money, after accounting for state income tax, is ~$35 million. Read the article"

As usual, you move the goalposts when are empirically proven wrong. The article shows the number is more like $19M nothing close to $35M.

It's also a totally ridiculous concept to compare a four year contract to a five year one. It's as ridiculous as you saying he'd had to play for the veteran's minimum in year five. Oops, after showing your ignorance of this, you changed to the MLE. This is also preposterous.

But you can't admit I am right and you are wrong.

It's really about who you are.

Jesus Christ.

1. Here is deaconblue's response to the article and my response to his post. I was simply pointing out that unless federal tax law changes, the difference between what the Clippers can offer and what a Texas team can offer is actually $35 million not $25 million.

I'm right on that point and haven't moved the goalposts at all. It's not my fault you didn't bother to look at where the goalposts were before jumping into the conversation.

One part of their argument is very real right now, the difference in Zero Texas state income tax on the bulk of his salary and endorsement money and the California state income tax (13%) on it.

The federal tax change part of their analysis is a lot weaker, because it requires that the federal tax law change to eliminate deductibility of state income taxes. Your guess is as good as mine as to whether that actually happens.

Currently the difference is about $25 million, not the $50 million it looks like in the raw numbers. and that number could be smaller if the federal code changes.

What is a better ring chasing chance worth?

Without the change in federal law the difference between what a Texas team can offer vs the Clippers, net of taxes, is actually about $35 million.

2. I have admitted in several posts now that you are right (and in fact I've never disagreed) that the article doesn't take into account non-guaranteed money CP3 is likely to earn after the hypothetical Texas contract is over and that this 5th year should be factored into any comparison.

3. I have admitted in several posts now that I misspoke when I said Chris might play for the vet minimum following a four year contract. I actually agree with you that this is unlikely because I think Chris will still be much better than that and is likely to retire rather than play for $3 million a year (though I was technically right that in a worst case scenario Chris could still at least earn around $3 million in that 5th year.

Keep digging that hole though.
 
Harden is more of a scorer than a shooter. A scorer needs the ball. A scorer can pass, but he has to have the ball to do it

Harden is an average shooter. If Chris goes there, it's a waste of Harden's pride.

RJ channeling his inner John Madden. I like it!
 
That's what they said about Monroe and Frazier, Lebron and Wade etc. Great players figure out. CP3 has never played with other guards who can create their own shot other than team USA. Guess we will see how this duo plays out.

Monroe was a scorer. All the way back to 68, he wasn't the primary ballhandler for the Bullets. Hell, one of those years, Wes Unseld only averaged .4 apg less than The Pearl. He was already a SG by the time he was traded to the Knicks. Red Holtzman had already created a motion offense that spread the ball around. What was unique about this offense was that Bradley and DeBusschere were stretch forwards. This opened the mid-range for Clyde and Pearl. It was a perfect fit. It's not the same as Harden and Chris.

Wade and Lebron are a perfect pair. Yes, Wade had to give up some shots, but Lebron's passing and ballhandling made it easier for Wade to score. Wade has always loved to move without the ball. Wade knew Lebron would find him as he slashed to the hoop and found open spaces. He understands how to fill lanes and was a top end spot up shooter (I didn't say three point shooter). This isn't the case with Harden.
 
Jesus Christ.

1. Here is deaconblue's response to the article and my response to his post. I was simply pointing out that unless federal tax law changes, the difference between what the Clippers can offer and what a Texas team can offer is actually $35 million not $25 million.

I'm right on that point and haven't moved the goalposts at all. It's not my fault you didn't bother to look at where the goalposts were before jumping into the conversation.





2. I have admitted in several posts now that you are right (and in fact I've never disagreed) that the article doesn't take into account non-guaranteed money CP3 is likely to earn after the hypothetical Texas contract is over and that this 5th year should be factored into any comparison.

3. I have admitted in several posts now that I misspoke when I said Chris might play for the vet minimum following a four year contract. I actually agree with you that this is unlikely because I think Chris will still be much better than that and is likely to retire rather than play for $3 million a year (though I was technically right that in a worst case scenario Chris could still at least earn around $3 million in that 5th year.

Keep digging that hole though.

If Chris plays a fifth year in either place in TX, he is likely not to make less than $15-20M for that year. It's not worth it to him otherwise. Even at $15M, when you add in the tax benefits, Chris will be leaving about $7-11M on the table not $35M or anything like that.

It's actually possible that Chris could make close to $22-30M that last year. This would make it a wash or he could profit by taking less.
 
If Chris plays a fifth year in either place in TX, he is likely not to make less than $15-20M for that year. It's not worth it to him otherwise. Even at $15M, when you add in the tax benefits, Chris will be leaving about $7-11M on the table not $35M or anything like that.

It's actually possible that Chris could make close to $22-30M that last year. This would make it a wash or he could profit by taking less.

All possible.

All clearly not the worst case scenario.

All not relevant to your previous histrionics during this discussion.

Decent attempt to avoid admitting your were blatantly wrong or apologize for yet again failing to read before you post.
 
All possible.

All clearly not the worst case scenario.

All not relevant to your previous histrionics during this discussion.

Decent attempt to avoid admitting your were blatantly wrong or apologize for yet again failing to read before you post.

WTF are you talking about? This is EXACTLY what I have said over and over and over again.
 
WTF are you talking about? This is EXACTLY what I have said over and over and over again.

While also claiming I was wrong and demanding that I admit it.

This is your MO. You enter a conversation and start talking about something different than everyone else without making it clear what you are talking about or why you are changing the subject.

It's taken me two pages to get you to realize (I hope) that the statement you first overreacted to and dismissed as incorrect was in fact accurate.
 
HUH?? Highest tax rate in CA is 13.3%. A $210M supermax would net a theoretical savings of $28M. What RC is also missing is that players' salaries aren't completely taxed in the states where their franchises reside. The 41 road games are taxed at different rates in the states where the games are played. Thus he saves some additional money for earnings not in the state.

He will not save even $30M on his contract and that is not "about $35M" by any reasonable definition of the term.

If Chris plays a fifth year in either place in TX, he is likely not to make less than $15-20M for that year. It's not worth it to him otherwise. Even at $15M, when you add in the tax benefits, Chris will be leaving about $7-11M on the table not $35M or anything like that.

It's actually possible that Chris could make close to $22-30M that last year. This would make it a wash or he could profit by taking less.

These two posts aren't saying the same thing
 
the article said $19M when taxes were taken into account. Even it's off (which it is), the max it would show is about $26M not the $35M you stated.

I've been VERY clear what I'm talking about.

Your MO is shout, shout and shout some more and declare yourself superior regardless of the facts. It's been who are and have been since you first appeared here. You truly hate being held accountable.
 
the article said $19M when taxes were taken into account. Even it's off (which it is), the max it would show is about $26M not the $35M you stated.

I've been VERY clear what I'm talking about.

Your MO is shout, shout and shout some more and declare yourself superior regardless of the facts. It's been who are and have been since you first appeared here. You truly hate being held accountable.

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Why does everyone assume he would not attempt to do a trade and keep all of his money. Reports say he met with the clippers last night had too be negotiate because we all know what they can offer 5 year max. Chris may realize being ball dominate might not be the best way to extend his career or succeed in the playoffs.
 
Why does everyone assume he would not attempt to do a trade and keep all of his money. Reports say he met with the clippers last night had too be negotiate because we all know what they can offer 5 year max. Chris may realize being ball dominate might not be the best way to extend his career or succeed in the playoffs.

A 6' PG who doesn't handle the ball isn't worth that kind of money. What would he do on offense if he's not orchestrating it?
 
RJ, here is the full text of the article with the relevant parts bolded.

And again, my claim is that (and always has been) that under current tax law, the Clippers can offer CP3 $35 million more in guaranteed money after taxes than any Texas team can.

Read it one more time and see if you can prove to us that you aren't an idiot and that you have an ounce of humility.
Moments after the Atlanta Hawks made Alpha Kaba the final pick in the 2017 NBA Draft, the attention of the basketball world turned to what promises to be a frenzied free-agency period. Beginning July 1st, a bevy of big-name players hit the open market, including Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, Gordon Hayward, and the tattered remains of Derrick Rose.


Los Angeles Clippers guard Chris Paul, right, shoots as Utah [+]


For these free agents, there is much to consider in choosing their next team. Who offers the most established leadership? (Miami) The best weather? (Miami) The most accessible network of HGH dealers? (Miami)

Then, of course, there’s the little matter of money, and when it comes to extracting the most coin possible out of a contract, it typically behooves a free agent to do nothing at all, and simply re-up with their previous employer.

That’s because the NBA’s collective bargaining agreement affords advantages to a team in re-signing it’s own free agents, provided the team has so-called “Larry Bird rights” in the player. Generally, this requires the player to have been with the team for three consecutive seasons, though there are a host of other ways a team can obtain these rights.

Once a team has Bird rights in a player, it can offer a contract no other team can match. To illustrate, because Chris Paul has played the past six seasons with the Clippers, LA can offer Paul a five-year deal with annual raises of 7.5% – which under the current salary cap structure would amount to a $200 million deal over the five-year period. Any other team with hopes of luring Paul, however, is limited to offering a 4-year pact with 4.5% annual raises, for a total package of $152 million over the life of the deal. Thus, by re-signing with the Clippers, Paul would have the security of an extra year on his contract, plus another $48 million in the bank.



So it’s a foregone conclusion that Paul will re-up with LA, right? Not so fast. He may well be on the move to the San Antonio Spurs, for two compelling reasons.

First, money may not be the most important factor in Paul’s decision. At the age of 32, the point guard is in win-now mode, and his run in LA has proven maddeningly frustrating. Despite possessing a Big 3 of Paul, forward Blake Griffin and center DeAndre Jordan, the Clippers have been stuck in neutral during Paul’s tenure, leaving many to believe that it’s time for both Paul and Griffin to take advantage of their free agency and seek a change in scenery.

And it’s hard to envision a better landing spot for Paul than San Antonio, a franchise that over the past two decades has been every bit as stable (one coach) and successful (five NBA titles) as the Clippers have been dysfunctional (previous owner Donald Sterling was deposed after making racist comments) and disappointing (not a single trip to the conference finals).

But we’ll leave the team comparisons to the sports pages; in this space, we write about taxes. And tax considerations — both the existing law and potential changes proposed by the Trump administration — may well help Paul bridge the $48 million gap between offers from the Clippers and Spurs and land him in San Antonio.

State Tax Considerations

As a California resident, Paul currently pays state income tax of 13.3% on his earnings, the highest rate in the country. From there, things get a touch more complicated. In the U.S., the taxation of professional athletes is based on “duty days;” basically, the income they earn is apportioned to each state based on the number of days they compete or train within the state, and is then taxed in that state according to its tax rates.



Any income allocated outside the state and taxed in another jurisdiction– for example, when the Clippers play the Phoenix Suns and Paul is required to pay Arizona state tax on the allocated income – will generate a credit Paul can use against his California income tax. That way, Paul is not paying tax on the same income to both California and Arizona. But because California’s rate will always be higher than the other state, Paul will still pay an effective rate of 13.3% on his income.

To illustrate, if Paul had $10,000 of income allocated to a state with a 5% tax rate, California – as Paul’s state of domicile — will tax the income at 13.3%, or $1,330. The other state will tax the income at 5%, or $500. Finally, on his California return, Paul will get a $500 credit for the tax he paid to the other state, reducing his California tax to $830, but his total tax will still remain $1,330 ($500 to other state + $830 to California).

Thus, if Paul earns $200 million over the five-year life of a new deal with the Clippers, he will pay approximately $26.6 million in state income tax over that span.

But what if Paul heads to San Antonio? Texas has no state income tax; as a result, Paul’s earnings would only be taxed to the extent he has duty days allocated outside of Texas. Sweetening the deal further, as a member of the Southwest Division, the Spurs play two road games apiece against the Houston Rockets and Dallas Mavericks. And if you’re one of the 6% of public school graduates who understand basic geography, you’ll recognize that those teams are also located in Texas, and so that income also escapes tax. In addition, the Spurs will play one road game each year against the Miami Heat and Orlando Magic, who are located in Florida, which also does not have an income tax. And lastly, they will play two road games each year against the Memphis Grizzlies, where a $2,500 per game “privilege tax” on athletes maxes out at $7,500 annually. Thus, in total, the salary earned from 49 of Paul’s 82 game days would largely go untaxed at the state level.



For the sake of argument, let’s assume that the NBA season comprises 270 duty days, from the beginning of training camp until the playoffs mercifully conclude in late June. Let’s further assume that the average state income tax rate in those states the Spurs compete in outside of Texas is 5%.

We’ve already determined that Paul will play 49 games in states with no income tax, meaning he will play 33 games in states with a tax. If we assume another 33 of travel days allocated to taxable states –purely a shot-in-the-dark estimate — and five playoff games located in taxable jurisdictions, we get a total allocation of duty days of 71/270, meaning 26.2% of Paul’s total earnings of $152 million over the life of his contract – or $40 million — will be subject to state income tax. At an average rate of 5%, Paul would pay approximately $2 million of state income tax over the four-year period. So in summary: $26 million in state taxes on $200 million of earnings if Paul stays in California (net of $174 million); $2 million in state taxes on $152 million if Paul heads to Texas (net of $150 million).

Of course, those numbers don’t take into consideration Paul’s federal income tax, which would surely be impacted by his state tax liability, right? Well, this is where free agents like Paul would be wise to keep an eye on the tenuous state of tax reform, as changes to federal tax law proposed by President Trump could mean the difference of millions of dollars during their next contract.

Changes to Federal Tax Law

In computing federal tax liability, individuals are permitted to deduct the state income taxes they pay. Thus, while Paul would pay a much larger state tax burden if he re-signs with the Clippers, under current law the blow would be softened by the fact that Paul would deduct the $26 million in state taxes on his federal return, where it could save him — ignoring alternative minimum tax and overall itemized deduction limitation implications for simplicity’s sake – 39.6 cents on every dollar, meaning the real after-tax cost of the state taxes would be only $15.7 million.



President Trump, however, has proposed eliminating the deduction for state and local income taxes. This would hit taxpayers in high-tax states like California, New York and New Jersey hard, as they would now receive no federal benefit for their state tax burden. As a result, the true cost of Paul’s $26 million in state tax would be….$26 million.

Of course, the impact of the law change would not be limited to professional athletes. High-earners in the aforementioned high-tax states would feel far more motivation to flee those states for more tax-friendly jurisdictions than they already do, and as you might imagine, this has the governors and Congressmen and women of those states in panic mode.

Whether a change as drastic as the elimination of the state and local tax deduction is able to navigate the political minefield and come to fruition remains to be seen, but should it do so, it could certainly influence where free agents choose to ply their trade. As indicated above, by re-signing with the Clippers, Paul would net approximately $173.4 million over the life of a five-year deal after state income taxes. Moving to the Spurs, however, would net Paul $150 million over four years, bringing the difference in contracts down from a gross amount of $48 million to an after-state tax amount of less than $24 million.

Of course, $24 million is still a lot of cash, but you have to consider that after a move to Texas, Paul’s considerable endorsement income would also escape state income tax. It is reported that Paul earns $8 million annually in endorsement income from State Farm and others; over a four-year life of a Spurs contract, he would walk away with $32 million net of state tax, whereas in LA he would net only he would pocket only $27 million after state tax (no federal taxes are factored in since they would be the same in both situations) That’s another $5 million removed from the excess offer LA can use to entice Paul, meaning he is left with the following decision:



Is the chance to start anew with the best franchise in the sport worth walking away from $19 million?
 
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