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Trump to expand Hobby Lobby to "moral convictions"

riscdeac said:
I will concede. Cover all the birth control you want. I really don't care. Preventing pregnancy needs to be covered go for it! The earlier the better, especially with today's role models! Break em in as soon as they start menstruating!

My problem is Terminating an innocent life in a mothers womb. I'll bet if a sat in front of every abortion clinic or doctors office and gave free vaginal sonograms, those young girls and women who are going to be inconvenienced saw what they were disposing of, they may change their minds.

I'm sorry that's it. I wish young men felt the same way I do.
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Including life created from rape and/or incest? With diagnosed medical conditions that will make the child's life brief and tortuous?
 
You are wrong riscdeac. Republicans are absolutely pushing their religious or moral beliefs on all people. Having any legislation based on religion is assinine to begin with when there is religious freedom in this country.

The big issue is that no federal funds went to abortion, you are not paying for them in any way. Yet you still want to get rid of them, why if not based on religion? I have the choice to disagree, based on my views. You, or Republicans, have the choice to not get an abortion if it is legal. Making it illegal is forcing your views onto me and that is BS.

You, or Republicans, are also doing that with trangender issues, gay marriage, etc.. Legislation against these groups is also based on religious views, which I completely disagree with, and feel that it is a direct persecution of their American rights and their ability to pursue happiness. It is legislated bigotry and if you are a Christan you would know that Jesus would not turn anyone away...

The Bible has been misused for a really long time. The true message of the Bible has been lost with this Republican Party. It is disgusting, to be honest.
 
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The great irony here is that the more people with health insurance that covers birth control, the fewer abortions occur. That's not theory, it's fact. In fact, since the implementation of the ACA, I believe I read the US has had fewer abortions since any time post RvW.

On that fact alone, seems for anyone holding abortion prevention as a central and high priority issue would not only seek to protect the ACA but promote even wider coverage for all, like single payer.
 
Why is paying for contraceptives bad as a preventative healthcare cost, but having PAP smears and mammograms or annual physicals OK?

Lots of preventative care is covered. Many insurance policies even offer free or big discounts for gym memberships.

If we listened to you and didn't cover the cost of contraceptives, here are some outcomes that would be inevitable:

More unwanted pregnancies
More abortions
More medical problem to women who didn't want to be pregnant
Higher cost to employers due to unwanted and unplanned pregnancies

Those are just a few. There is no logical reason not to cover contraceptives.
 
riscdeac said:
Plus end abortion period period. Hope your still clapping. ;)
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Nope. Women who become pregnant through rape should always have the option. Women who are pregnant with severely handicapped fetuses should always have the option.
 
riscdeac said:
Plus end abortion period period. Hope your still clapping. ;)
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One of my wife's best friends would have died without the ability to have an abortion at 7 months. Her husband and other 2 children are happy she was able to do so.
 
Reason #4532 why single payer is a good idea. Remove all these "moral convictions" that employers have in providing money for health insurance.
 
ImTheCaptain said:
Do we really need to go through and find a bunch of bullshit the plans would cover like viagra and hair transplants?

The view is right, republicans are as bad as the taliban if they're only willing to defend terrible policy with religious beliefs
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Many plans don't cover Viagra.
 
I get the calls for a compromise from a practical standpoint that aims to limit the number of abortions necessary through greater access to birth control, sex education, early detection, etc. in exchange for moving up the time during which a pregnancy can be terminated.

I just can't get behind it.

1. We should be doing all of those things to prevent the need for an abortion anyway. If people who claim to be "pro-life" really wanted to stop abortions we would have top notch access to birth control and sex education. Instead, their distorted views about sex and morality Trump their distorted views about when personhood begins.

2. A fetus isn't a person. It has the same moral status as a plant until it becomes conscious. It's only value lies in its potential to become a person but that value is uniquely held by the mother who can choose whether to make that potential a reality.

3. This is an unpopular opinion but I think abortion should probably be legal up until birth. Until it becomes a person I don't give a shit what the mother carrying the fetus chooses. Personhood is rooted in consciousness (which leads to awareness) and I haven't seen any scientific evidence that a fetus experiences anything other than something akin to a dreamless sleep until it is born. The nerves necessary to support consciousness develop during the third trimester so I could maybe get behind limiting abortion to rape/incest/health risks to mother once the fetus hits 28 weeks or so.

4. What's more, from a philosophical standpoint a woman should have an absolute right to have an abortion without any governmental interference up until viability. Even if a fetus were a person, the government simply had no interest until the fetus could theoretically be taken care of by the state without the mothers involvement.
 
What's ironic is that the most dramatic lowering of abortion rates happened under Clinton and Obama.
 
And the thing is the Christian view on abortion doesn't even stem from the belief that personhood begins at conception. The Bible never explicitly states this, and most of the passages cited by pro-life Christians are vague at best.

Thomas Aquinas took the view that the soul entered the body at "quickening" rather than at conception.
 
RChildress107 said:
And the thing is the Christian view on abortion doesn't even stem from the belief that personhood begins at conception. The Bible never explicitly states this, and most of the passages cited by pro-life Christians are vague at best.

Thomas Aquinas took the view that the soul entered the body at "quickening" rather than at conception.
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This is true, but the practice of abortion is acknowledged in the Bible, so its not as if it wasn't happening.

Also, as has been discussed here, the pro life movement was stoked by political operatives interested in coalescing a voting bloc, not by RvW which was passed with little reaction from evangelicals and others groups
 
riscdeac said:
Strong point a view. Thanks for sharing. I am always interested in a young mans point of view.

I don't want to argue the point, I believe in life at conception. We can agree to disagree.
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Fair enough. Not to quibble but I believe life begins at conception too. I just view that life as akin to plant life or lower forms of unconscious animal life until the fetus is born.

There is a reason humans assign a different moral status to themselves than other animals. And a reason we assign a different moral status to certain mammals than say fish.

That moral status is connected to consciousness or self awareness. Not life, not a heartbeat, not movement, not a response to stimuli, but consciousness. I see know reason to assign a moral status to a fetus on an entirely different basis, though I'd be interested to hear arguments for why we should.
 
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