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Supreme Court to rule on baker refusing to make cake for gay couple

So Deacman:

Should the baker have the right to refuse to sell a gay couple cookies off the shelf if he thinks they will serve them at their wedding? Or even if they tell him they will?

Should a hotel manager be able to refuse to sell a gay coupons the romance honeymoon suite package with an arranged rose petal heart on the bed?
 
I can't believe someone is here arguing that baking a wedding cake is similar to officiating a wedding.

I've acknowledged it is a different case, but you are correct that I do see them as similar. You are engaged in a political or emotional debate instead of a legal one. You want your views endorsed and you want the baker's views ostracized. But the law doesn't work that way. It has to sort out the respective rights of both parties. So while I personally don't get why the baker won't make the cake, I do understand the arguments he'll be making in court. And I think those arguments have decent odds of winning.

Say you were a baker Ph and someone wanted you to bake a cake celebrating white power? Should you be forced to bake that particular cake? It's just a cake right? And if you refuse aren't you refusing to serve someone on the basis of their race? Of course the law wouldn't require you to bake that particular cake. You wouldn't even need a religious objection to refuse. But if you refused to service white people as a general matter you'd be in clear violation of the law. Similar idea here. Gays are free to come in and buy whatever they want off the shelf at the bakery. The baker is simply refusing to make a custom cake celebrating a particular ceremony on the grounds it violates his religious beliefs.
 
A wedding cake is a pretty integral part of the reception (and they're certainly priced that way).
 
So Deacman:

Should the baker have the right to refuse to sell a gay couple cookies off the shelf if he thinks they will serve them at their wedding? Or even if they tell him they will?

Should a hotel manager be able to refuse to sell a gay coupons the romance honeymoon suite package with an arranged rose petal heart on the bed?

First question. No. The court would find that the cookies were already baked, on the shelf and you could not refuse to sell them on the basis of sexual orientation. That's how I'd rule in that case.

Not sure if you worded your second question correctly. But as worded, the answer is, again, no. The suite is the suite and the law is clear you can't hold back anyone from renting it on the basis of them being in a protected class.

This all presumes sexual orientation is recognized as a protected group for accomodation.

You could not, however, force a hotel to create a dedicated gay wedding suite for instance.
 
I've acknowledged it is a different case, but you are correct that I do see them as similar. You are engaged in a political or emotional debate instead of a legal one. You want your views endorsed and you want the baker's views ostracized. But the law doesn't work that way. It has to sort out the respective rights of both parties. So while I personally don't get why the baker won't make the cake, I do understand the arguments he'll be making in court. And I think those arguments have decent odds of winning.

Say you were a baker Ph and someone wanted you to bake a cake celebrating white power? Should you be forced to bake that particular cake? It's just a cake right? And if you refuse aren't you refusing to serve someone on the basis of their race? Of course the law wouldn't require you to bake that particular cake. You wouldn't even need a religious objection to refuse. But if you refused to service white people as a general matter you'd be in clear violation of the law. Similar idea here. Gays are free to come in and buy whatever they want off the shelf at the bakery. The baker is simply refusing to make a custom cake celebrating a particular ceremony on the grounds it violates his religious beliefs.

For the record, I think you're absolutely right that the baker will win (easily) which then sets the precedent for DJs, photographers, florists, caterers, wedding planners, etc.

Out of curiosity, if I went into the bakery and requested a four-tiered white cake and the baker asked, "Is this for a wedding?" Do I have any obligation to say "yes?" If I refuse to acknowledge the purpose of the cake, can the baker still claim that they object to baking it?
 
First question. No. The court would find that the cookies were already baked, on the shelf and you could not refuse to sell them on the basis of sexual orientation. That's how I'd rule in that case.

Not sure if you worded your second question correctly. But as worded, the answer is, again, no. The suite is the suite and the law is clear you can't hold back anyone from renting it on the basis of them being in a protected class.

This all presumes sexual orientation is recognized as a protected group for accomodation.

You could not, however, force a hotel to create a dedicated gay wedding suite for instance.

But what if the hotel manager says that the rose petal arrangement is a custom job, and he refuses to do it for a gay couple?
 
Obviously this opens up tons of what-ifs.

The daughter of a lesbian couple is being baptized and the couple requests a custom baptismal gown. Can the seamstress refuse?
 
Obviously this opens up tons of what-ifs.

The daughter of a lesbian couple is being baptized and the couple requests a custom baptismal gown. Can the Muslim seamstress refuse?

What if?
 
I'm curious as to what a lesbian baptismal gown would look like...also a Muslim baptismal gown...
 
Obviously this opens up tons of what-ifs.

The daughter of a lesbian couple is being baptized and the couple requests a custom baptismal gown. Can the seamstress refuse?

There are a lot of examples. Should an atheist seamstress be required to make any baptismal gown? I can see a clear argument for that answer being no.
 
There are a lot of examples. Should an atheist seamstress be required to make any baptismal gown? I can see a clear argument for that answer being no.

If she advertises specialty baptismal gowns on her website? Or course.
 
Well if you're baptized at 3 months I'm not sure you know you're a lesbian yet. Muslims baptize?

Frankly if the. Baker doesn't acknowledge same sex marriage whether he bakes the cake or not doesn't change his view. If he is not acknowledging the marriage he should have no problem baking the cake because it isn't real as far as he or she is concerned. It doesn't exist, it's not a sacrament, God hasn't condoned it, so why should the baker pass any judgement. Bake the cake. Whatever the cake symbolizes doesn't put the baker in any sinful state. It's simply rediculous. He's not participating in the marriage ceremony or celebration.

So should a black baker have to bake a customized cake honoring a white supremist. It's just a cake. Why should the baker care?
 
So should a black baker have to bake a customized cake honoring a white supremist. It's just a cake. Why should the baker care?

Should a white supremacist have to feed a black person at his restaurant? If the answer is yes, then the baker has to do the cake.
 
Should a white supremacist have to feed a black person at his restaurant? If the answer is yes, then the baker has to do the cake.

Yet again, you fail to grasp nuance. The baker in this case has said he will serve anyone who walks in the door. He simply won't back a custom cake.

So yes, a white supremist has to feed everyone at his restaurant who is afforded an accomodation - and race groups qualify. The black baker, however, would likely not be required to bake a custom cake to support a white supremist.
 
They probably don't mind being served by black people.
 
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