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John McCain has died

AAAAH, the irony excuse...that's like a director saying his/her bomb of a movie was actually a satire...

I know exactly who I am...and have great idea of who portray yourself as...a young PH...taking multiple sides on so many posts...never wrong and always certain of knowing it all...

RJ, Ph isn’t arguing with you right now. It’s pretty lame that you keep bringing his name into it. You can make your point without doing that, unless you are trying to take shots at him or goad him into your argument. You’ve made your point. May we move on?
 
Things that can all be true at the same time:

1) John McCain should be respected for his service in the military and lauded for surviving what no normal American could possibly imagine
2) Donald Trump is the scum of the earth and his continuous disrespect shown toward McCain's military service is despicable
3) John McCain's legislative and political record should be scrutinized and criticized appropriately, especially when it comes to defense and war decisions
4) McCain was one of the only GOP Senators to ever stand up to Donald Trump, which deserves credit in its own right
5) Cancer fucking sucks

I feel for McCain and his family. I've lost damn near double digit family members to cancer in the last decade. Both of my parents are cancer survivors. I wish the entire McCain family peace in John McCain's inevitable passing. But that does not shield McCain from criticism for his record, of which I think a large amount of OGB members would have issue. It's not unempathetic to criticize McCain.

People are weird when it comes to death.

This discussion is a perfect distillation of liberalism. NED and RJ care more about manners and decorum than they do about the killing of 51 children. They don't stake out any ideological positions so NED can pretend he is a democrat and RJ can incessantly defend shitty democrats who are equally as complicit in constant war. Their favorite pundits on TV will pearl clutch about antifa knocking a camera out of a journalist's hand but not even fucking cover the Yemen conflict.

Top ten list of NED heroes (after McCain of course).


Thanks for the reminder.

1. You can care about decorum and the killing of 51 children at the same time. I actually care about both and like I mentioned in my previous post... I have no problem with criticizing McCain’s political record. But that’s not what Trump is doing here.

2. I don’t pretend to be a Democrat. I’ve been pretty outspoken on the boards about being a card carrying Republican for most of my life who left the party after Trump was elected and was subsequently embraced by 80% of the GOP. I am a right leaning centrist who happens to believe that Democrats present the best opportunity to lead the country back to sanity. I abhor partisanship and will do everything within my power to spread the truth about the deceit of the GOP (I used to work for the party) while encouraging center right and other independents to vote straight Democrat because A.) The current GOP needs to sit in timeout for several years and B.) Dems actually want to govern, fix shit and build a future for our kids.

3. My comment about the far right and far left being almost one in the same was misinterpreted (my fault for not elaborating). I meant it in the context of ideological purity tests...and the willingness for either side (far left or far right) to cut off its nose to spite its face. The far extremes of both sides don’t understand nor do they appreciate that we are a union of several ideologies and that compromise and time are needed for real change to happen. Our country and legislative system moves at the speed of an aircraft carrier. Fast change is nearly impossible but small changes today tend to set the country on a trajectory for bigger changes down the road. Giving up the opportunities for small changes today is just short sighted.

4. I have zero problem with the far left’s policy agenda. I don’t agree with much of it but (and I’ve said this before) your input and MDMH’s input is important for a healthy democracy. Unlike the Lectro’s of the world...I welcome it and want your side to challenge the country’s thinking.

5. Re: your top 10 list...nice try but this is far off.

Garland/Mensch/Abramson: interesting reads in the old heady days of the Russia investigation but it became apparently pretty quickly that they didn’t have much of a clue. I haven’t linked to any of these people in well over a year.
Nance: Don’t have a problem with what he says but his credibility is in serious question with a lot of military and intelligence officials. Not my favorite source by any means.
Krassensteins: who?
Wallace & Schmidt: Yep. These two have been around the block and are a good source of political analysis. They are real political strategists...not the bullshit kind you frequently find on cable news.
Avenatti: fucking please. I can’t believe the Democrats are seriously considering this guy for 2020. I like his bulldog style but he has no political experience and he’s an attention whore. Sounds vaguely similar to the current clown occupying the White House.
Schiff: One of the only members of the Democratic Party who has a consistent message on the Russia investigation. Do people on the far left really not like this guy???
Kristol: Yep. The original never trumper who called Trump a charlatan well before it was cool.
Frum: Yep. See above.
Painter: Meh. He cracks me up and I appreciate his never trump pedigree but should not crack top 10.
Siskin day: who?
 
1. You can care about decorum and the killing of 51 children at the same time. I actually care about both and like I mentioned in my previous post... I have no problem with criticizing McCain’s political record. But that’s not what Trump is doing here.

2. I don’t pretend to be a Democrat. I’ve been pretty outspoken on the boards about being a card carrying Republican for most of my life who left the party after Trump was elected and was subsequently embraced by 80% of the GOP. I am a right leaning centrist who happens to believe that Democrats present the best opportunity to lead the country back to sanity. I abhor partisanship and will do everything within my power to spread the truth about the deceit of the GOP (I used to work for the party) while encouraging center right and other independents to vote straight Democrat because A.) The current GOP needs to sit in timeout for several years and B.) Dems actually want to govern, fix shit and build a future for our kids.

3. My comment about the far right and far left being almost one in the same was misinterpreted (my fault for not elaborating). I meant it in the context of ideological purity tests...and the willingness for either side (far left or far right) to cut off its nose to spite its face. The far extremes of both sides don’t understand nor do they appreciate that we are a union of several ideologies and that compromise and time are needed for real change to happen. Our country and legislative system moves at the speed of an aircraft carrier. Fast change is nearly impossible but small changes today tend to set the country on a trajectory for bigger changes down the road. Giving up the opportunities for small changes today is just short sighted.

4. I have zero problem with the far left’s policy agenda. I don’t agree with much of it but (and I’ve said this before) your input and MDMH’s input is important for a healthy democracy. Unlike the Lectro’s of the world...I welcome it and want your side to challenge the country’s thinking.

5. Re: your top 10 list...nice try but this is far off.

Thanks for the response.

1. Sorry but to say "you can care about both" is silly. Of course you can. But you can also care about one thing exponentially more than the other, so much so that caring about the decorum is immaterial. And the extent which people prefer to talk about the decorum over any substance, is nauseating. I still can't fathom why anyone, not currently employed by lockheed martin or halliburton, cares about the name of a defense spending bill. Naming it the John S McCain Bill is fucking propaganda on its own!

2. I appreciate that you think Trump is bad. But the frustration I have with the never Trumpers is that it erases our ideological disagreements. It rehabilitates republicans that have always had bad ideology. I'd rather talk about healthcare/mass incarceration/housing policy and solutions to them, than take opinions from republicans on how the Democratic party should campaign. What happens after the election? You'll still be a republican and support a party that opposes the policy of Democrats. Why do you abhor partisanship? What about the past 40 years makes you believe that reforming government and institutions through bi/non-partisanship reform is possible? Politics is not "both teams are good and the more we compromise the better."

3. This is just a rewording of "the oppressed must wait patiently for their oppressors to free them."

MLK - "We will be greatly misled if we feel that the problem will work itself out. Structures of evil do not crumble by passive waiting."

4. Thank you. Political disagreement is good and we should have more of it.

5. My fav resistance grifter is Steve Schmidt. I just love when he spits saliva all over the msnbc set screaming about the sanctity of the rule of law.
 
Thanks for the response.

1. Sorry but to say "you can care about both" is silly. Of course you can. But you can also care about one thing exponentially more than the other, so much so that caring about the decorum is immaterial. And the extent which people prefer to talk about the decorum over any substance, is nauseating. I still can't fathom why anyone, not currently employed by lockheed martin or halliburton, cares about the name of a defense spending bill. Naming it the John S McCain Bill is fucking propaganda on its own!

2. I appreciate that you think Trump is bad. But the frustration I have with the never Trumpers is that it erases our ideological disagreements. It rehabilitates republicans that have always had bad ideology. I'd rather talk about healthcare/mass incarceration/housing policy and solutions to them, than take opinions from republicans on how the Democratic party should campaign. What happens after the election? You'll still be a republican and support a party that opposes the policy of Democrats. Why do you abhor partisanship? What about the past 40 years makes you believe that reforming government and institutions through bi/non-partisanship reform is possible? Politics is not "both teams are good and the more we compromise the better."

3. This is just a rewording of "the oppressed must wait patiently for their oppressors to free them."

MLK - "We will be greatly misled if we feel that the problem will work itself out. Structures of evil do not crumble by passive waiting."

4. Thank you. Political disagreement is good and we should have more of it.

5. My fav resistance grifter is Steve Schmidt. I just love when he spits saliva all over the msnbc set screaming about the sanctity of the rule of law.

Great post, thanks for responding. A few more thoughts:

1. Fair point, makes sense. That being said, I still stand by the fact that Trump denigrating McCain is a douchey move. It has nothing to do with policy and everything to do with the fact that Trump knows deep down inside that he hates McCain because he commands the respect that Trump wants so badly.

2. Again, fair point.

I think where we really disagree is on the point of “ideological differences”...many moderates including myself don’t feel beholden to an ideology for ideologies’ sake. I feel beholden to the truth and what’s going to drive our country forward. I default to laissez-faire policies because I think in the long run they generally produce the best outcomes. However I have no problem abandoning those views based on the context of the situation or the information at hand. For example, I want tax rates to be as low as possible...I think this is what a government should strive for...however I have no problem raising tax rates to control deficits or to raise revenue for things we desperately need to invest in like education. If I ever ran for office I would shit all over a pledge like Grover Norquist’s tax pledge. It’s pure bullshit.

Back to never trumpers...I think where our frustration comes in is that we see an unhinged man in the White House and we’re willing to put aside ideological differences (at least some of us) to form a coalition of those that want to preserve the constitution and the institutions we’ve built over the past 250 years. I think mainstream and moderate democrats agree with this approach but I don’t get the feeling those to the left of these groups feel the same way.

This is why you will rarely see me debate policy. Policy is secondary to the threat staring us in the face right now. Once we vote this buffoon out of office or impeach him, then we can get back to debating policy.

What happens to never trumpers after the election is a good question. Can’t speak for others but I’m currently sans party and plan to be for the foreseeable future. I plan to support Democrats and independents who will put people and the country before party and ideology. I will have a very hard time voting for another Republican unless I feel very confident that they will fight Trumpism every chance he/she gets. Even Charlie Baker who avoids Trump like the plague, runs an incredible state and is the most popular governor in the country will have a hard time receiving my vote this fall.

3. Fair point but I would still argue you have a greater and faster path to free the oppressed by supporting Democrat and progressive candidates who can win in their districts/states. Ocasio-Cortez is a smart choice for Brooklyn, NY...not so much for a statewide senate race in Alabama. Just my two cents.

4. Truth

5. Can’t tell if this is a backhanded compliment of Schmidt or if you’re being sincere but he does spit fire. I highly recommend Rick Wilson if you like Schmidt’s style. Less statesman...more biting wit.
 
You do have an ideology though. You can't just say "I believe in the truth" or that you are not beholden to an ideology.

Your ideology has no solution for mass incarceration or racist policing. How is the free market doing providing health care to our country? How did it get us to 6-7x the incarceration rate of other countries? We are i think one of the only countries where medical bankruptcy exists.

The left ideology is that institutions like prisons, policing, land ownership are intrinsic to capitalism and therefore can't be reformed. The reason why young people are digging socialism is that they are living the impacts of late stage capitalism, like parents dying from lack of healthcare or people raising money for health crises on gofundme.
 
You do have an ideology though. You can't just say "I believe in the truth" or that you are not beholden to an ideology.

Your ideology has no solution for mass incarceration or racist policing. How is the free market doing providing health care to our country? How did it get us to 6-7x the incarceration rate of other countries? We are i think one of the only countries where medical bankruptcy exists.

The left ideology is that institutions like prisons, policing, land ownership are intrinsic to capitalism and therefore can't be reformed. The reason why young people are digging socialism is that they are living the impacts of late stage capitalism, like parents dying from lack of healthcare or people raising money for health crises on gofundme.

Like I said above (or at least implied), count me in for government intervention where the market does a shitty job of managing itself or controlling for externalities. Heathcare is a great example.
 
Honest question, what does controlling for externalities mean?
 
1. "...those that want to preserve the constitution and the institutions we’ve built over the past 250 years. I think mainstream and moderate democrats agree with this approach but I don’t get the feeling those to the left of these groups feel the same way."

2. "...Policy is secondary to the threat staring us in the face right now. Once we vote this buffoon out of office or impeach him, then we can get back to debating policy."

3. "...put people and the country before party and ideology."

1. The institutions built over the past 250 years are corrupt, unfair, and systemically racist. Those institutions bring about tremendous worldwide suffering through imperialism and severe inequality in America. What exactly are you "preserving" that you couldnt find in every other first world country?

2. How is Trump a greater threat to our country than say...poverty? Do you believe that people in poverty feel the same way? Are they more worried about Trump, or feeding their family and paying for medicine?

3. "Country before ideology" is vague nonsense. How are you helping people or the country? The very definition of ideology is a personal belief - assumedly a belief in how to help people/the country.
 
Like I said above (or at least implied), count me in for government intervention where the market does a shitty job of managing itself or controlling for externalities. Heathcare is a great example.

It feels wholly insufficient to say "count me in for government intervention" when your entire ideology (or the traditional ideology of your party) is for the removal of government intervention. Capitalism creates these externalities. You can't just waive a magic intervention wand and fix mass incarceration. You need to have an ideology that addresses the current problems with incarceration, housing, poverty, etc. and provides solutions.
 
McCain has stopped taking medication as the illness has progressed.
 
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